Looking forward to this feature, Alyssa.

In one sense, you're not wandering but rather purposefully following God wherever He leads. Please continue listening and writing.

Deep down, we know this: Being an Adventist Christian means not staying away from those who are not.

Alyssa I enjoyed reading about your experience. I believe that your experience at Wheaton will make you a more rounded person. Once you complete your studies there, perhaps it will be time to turn your attention to a non-Adventist school for your Ph.D. maybe a state school like UNC Chapel Hill, or private institutions such as Harvard, University of Chicago or Emory University. You might even take a trip abroad and study at a place like the University of Edinburgh. There are so many options available, but as you have done in choosing Wheaton it is finding the right fit for what you are trying to accomplish. I appreciate you sharing your spiritual and educational journey.

Jaime...

Wheaton would very likely be just as conservative as Andrews on many social and biblical issues. It also isn't totally accurate to say that evangelicals totally disregard the 10 commandments. They just happen to see Sabbath and law differently based on a different view of the covenants. However, it was evangelicals that organized the 10 commandment event, a public rallying behind the commandments that took place in D.C. several years back, in which we participated.

What is more important, is that Christ is preached front and center...that his redemptive work for us, and his power to elicit a faith that expresses itself in a practical love for him and others is first and last. This is not foreign to evangelicals as the essence of the gospel or of the law's greatest commandments as defined by Jesus and Paul. It's not foreign to Adventists either. On this we can share common ground.

Yelling in caps to make your point doesn't make it. Nor does it cover up the evil caricature you have painted of evangelicals. Building bridges goes a lot further than fortress walls.

Thanks...

Frank

The tone of the piece seems to be "look mum, I'm disobeying everyone's advice, and I'm doing well".

For now.....

Come back here in 10 years and we will see what you think and how you have changed.

Happy is he (she) who learns from other people's mistakes.

I did my Masters degree in Theology at a secular university and I had a wonderful, blessed time. The refreshing and relaxing thing about it was that none of the professors tried to persuade or convince me of anything. Rather they taught me how to conduct proper research and how to think for myself. All professors knew that I was an Adventist (it gradually came up in conversations) and they never said a bad word about it but instead delighted that we had such a mixed group of students from different denominational backgrounds. What impressed me most was the genuine friendliness, openness, and the high level of professionalism. At my local church, similar to Alyssa's experience, the majority of people were skeptical and asked me if I have now changed my beliefs and if I now believe in evolution. Only a few cherished friends encouraged me throughout my studies. The elders kept a watchful eye on any heretical elements during my sermons. Needless to say there weren't any. I'm an Adventist by choice and not by nationality or profession. The paranoia within our church doesn't scare me as much as it saddens me.

Need I remind anyone that I am an atheist with two theological degrees from two Adventist schools?

We were the first post WII class at the College of Dentistry at the University of Illinois. The Council on Dental Education was proposing an entrance test for applicants. The test included several exercises to test hand skills. One was to take and overside piece of chalk carve a dome on one end. a point end on the other like a pencil and in the middle a notch half way through of precise dimensions.

A student across the lab bench from my sister and I announced to the class. This will be a cinch for me. I went to technical high school. So he began as if he was peeling a carrot. Soon he broke off one end, Then began on the other with the same result. He manly carried on until he broke the piece in two at the center notch.

Since we were already admitted to the dental school, his failure didn't count--the test was just to create a baseline for future applicants. The plaster test was dropped because it was too difficult to assess.

However, one of our first classes was a laboratory class entitled Basic Techniques. We had to solder stainless steel wire in to some kind of space junk. Cut the logo of the University of Illinois into a piece of sterling silver and then bend it into a money clip. Our technical highschool student again sat across from us. Before the end of the quarter, he was asked to leave.

I think he has an entirely different view of the College of Dentistry at the University of Illinois that I--having graduated with honors without going to technical school.

Weaton College is what the student makes of it. The University of Southern California produced only one Edward Heppenstall. The University of Chicago produced only one Graham Maxwell. F.F. Bruce produced only one Des Ford. Men who think outside the box but within the Gospel Commission.

Isn't that what we really want?

Tom Z

Pagophilus - Fri, 02/10/2012 - 00:05
Basically, if you listen to or read error often enough you will come to believe it.

Aren't you afraid that that's what's happened to you? Perhaps sticking strictly to the Bible is the safest path. How do you know you haven't been brainwashed? Just wondering.

Pagophilus has some good points and what Blake writes echoes the all too often prevailing thoughts that one can roll in the mud without getting dirty!

Of course we should mingle with those not of our faith but to study theology with them does not seem to be within the parameters of good judgment if we follow Scriptures and EGW.

In 1978 the late GC President Robert Pierson wrote: "The Seventh-day Adventist Church had its alpha years ago. You and I are the leaders who will face the omega that will be of the same subtle, devilish origin. Its effect will be more devastating than the alpha. Brethren, I beg of you, study, know what is ahead, then with God’s help prepare your people to meet it!"

How prophetic!

Those of you who have good perception and judgment note how Sirje, just as many politicians do, takes my comment out of context making it say what he wants it to say apparently but not what I wrote at all. I seldom comment on such misuse of context but it is so evident, whether you are pro or con, that the effort by Sirje to make my comments seem what they aren't is particularly conspicuous.

And here I was told Andrews was already a dangerous center of Eastern mysticisms and all sorts of Omega apostasy. And now some of you are suggesting that Alyssa should have gone to this swirling cesspool of apostasy? Or by Adventist do you mean self-supporting Adventist schools.

Tom Zwemer,

As an Adventist theology student who is studying at Andrews Seminary, I think you're being unfair to it. After about five months here, I have never heard anything contrary to the Gospel of salvation by faith in Christ's grace alone. Nor have I ever heard of this doctrine being preached. Pretty much all of my friends and acquaintances are gospel believing Christians so if legalism was taught I think I would have heard about it. I don't think one will really find a different perspective on soteriology here than what they would from a conservative Evangelical school. Of course, it's from the Wesleyan branch of the Arminian tradition, so the purists among five point Calvinists may still think we have strayed into hellish apostasy. However, our view on justification, sanctification, and such, is well within the mainstream of Evangelical thought.

Also a great deal of our books are from Evangelical non-Adventist scholars; off the top of my head I'd say it is the majority though I can't be sure. Even one of my most conservative professors assigns 50% non-Adventist literature. Of course, as an Adventist institution they teach Adventist beliefs. However, those beliefs are taught to be centered in the Biblical Christ centered Gospel. In my experience they are made to serve the gospel and not the other way around.

I don't think the ideological orientation of this Seminary when it comes to the core issues of all Christianity, is greatly different than one would receive from any conservative Evangelical seminary. Now it is conservative evangelical in its orientation, so the real liberals might have reason to not be satisfied with it. If Schleirmacher and the enlightenment protestants are your cup of tea then you'll find the Seminary radically conservative. I actually found it to be a bit of an intellectual cultural shock, after have just graduated from history at Union College. One of my main history professors was certainly much more liberal than the Seminary would tolerate On the overall Christian spectrum the seminary admittedly is quite conservative,(I'm guessing Wheaton is as well) but so are you Tom.

@John Mark:"Also a great deal of our books are from Evangelical non-Adventist scholars; off the top of my head I'd say it is the majority though I can't be sure...."

Comrade John:
Don't say that so loud man! Ted Wilson may hear you, and then what will AU do?
Does it actually mean that AU is careless about what Ted Wilson prescribed regarding reading non-Adventist literature?

Why is non-Adventist literature bad for church members and at the same time it is good for students at AU? Is AU now rebelling?

I care less about what Ted said about this issue, because for me it's obviously a total nonsense and a retrograde thinking. But I am curious about consistency between the great GC President and the Institutions under his "guidance". How does that work?

Seriously, this needs to be investigated asap by the _GC!!!

@ Chris Blake.

Chris, "Your Friend" isn't rolling in the mud, because to roll in the mud means you actually listen with interest and understanding as well as talk.

My understanding of Jesus is that He rolled in the mud but didn't sling it...except at bullies.

Love you, as always.

-- Tim

I doubt Alyssa will loose her faith at a school such as Wheaton. It has some progressive leanings in some respects (its science faculty is accepting of 'theistic evolution' and global climate change, for example), but the school is still generally within the fold of conservative protestantism. She could, however, begin to loose her faith (it's a possibility) if she elects to do her PhD at schools such as U. of Chicago, Princeton, Harvard, Union, etc. Sure, one can always choose to hold on to a fundamentalist interpretation of scriptures in the face of compelling scholarship and evidence, but a number of individuals have decided that they couldn't. Alyssa could also choose to go on to UNC-Chapel Hill, where she will no doubt encounter the renowned NT Scholar, Bart Ehrman, a fundamentalist-turned-agnostic, an alumnus of Wheaton College in Ilinois who went on to graduate study at Princeton where he lost his faith.

Good luck.

Al,
Loosing one's faith could be quite beneficial. I would mourn for anyone who loses their faith, however.

George Tichy,
The two or three times I have heard students bring up that Ted Wilson line (usually in a WTH was Ted thinking manner) the professors argue Wilson was misinterpreted on that statement, and that of course one should read broadly.

George Tichy wrote: Question: Is there any BIBLICAL suggestion that an Adventist should not study in a non-Adventist school? Or that non-Adventist books should not be read???

Yes. Isaiah 8:20

To the law and to the testimony. If they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them.

As I read through the first few coments the chorus of a wellknown children's song came to mind: "you in your small corner, and I in mine". How many of us are standing in our own small corners, facing the wall, desparately trying to hang on to the belief that there are no other Christians apart from SDAs.So sad.

Tom,
A lot depends upon the conference. My home conference certainly did not foster that kind of attitude. The pastors were faithful Adventists, but I rarely recall hearing Ellen White from the pulpit and the gospel was grace centered. Of course, the Mdiv. does not require a dissertation which I think is what Paulson is getting. A Doctoral degree involves endorsing one's work, but still I would hope that's for the most part narrowly applied to the person's dissertation and not their overall view of everything in life.

After I left the Adventist church it was the Baptists and the Anglicans that God used to bring me back to His fold - and back to the Adventist church. Years later, the Metropolitan Community Church taught me the value of understanding God's word in new waysthat brought me closer to God than I could have imagined - and also the immense value of Adventism. Mixing with other Christians is good for the soul - as long as one keeps God top priority.

So apparently, daring to get your theology degree from any institution other than an Adventist one is akin to sleeping in the Beast's bed and studying with non Adventists is rolling in the mud. I suppose since I go to a secular university, I might as well be the Anti-Christ himself!

Do you really expect to draw people to your church with such arrogance? Are you really that frightened of protecting your theological purity and not being contaminated by the "unbelievers?"

If you believe your theology is correct, then discuss it with others and try to convince others in a loving way and stop being constantly afraid of contamination.

It's surprising that Wilson hasn't tried to personally regulate the various Adventist universities to regulate the type of books read in it. I suppose even the original Reformers are off limits because they weren't Adventists. Ignore everything prior to the Adventists, and read only Adventist commentaries.

Some interesting statements by Jaime Vargas, Pagophilus and Your Friend:

"WHEN ADVENTST STUDENTS GET THEIR PHD IN THEOLOGY FROM AN NON ADVENTIST SCHOOL(BABYBLONIAN) THEY COME OUT THINKING AND TEACHING AS EVANGELICALS DO." (Jaime Vargas)

"I saw that we have no time to throw away in listening to fables. Our minds should not be thus diverted, but should be occupied with the present truth... (Pagophilus, quoting EGW)"

"Of course we should mingle with those not of our faith but to study theology with them does not seem to be within the parameters of good judgment if we follow Scriptures and EGW." (Your Friend)

The more I contemplate these statements--which initially I vehemently disagreed with--the more I have come to realize that their concern should be listened to. In fact, what is particularly distressing is that some of our denominational leaders have set examples that have led young people like Alyssa to risk eternal damnation by not attending the Andrews seminary and instead getting their graduate theology degrees from non-Adventist universities.

I believe it is time for reform and reformation. Like Nehemiah, we should separate from among us these contaminated leaders. We should remove from church leadership those ministers who have gotten their Masters or PhDs from non-SDA universities. The first to be disciplined should be Ted Wilson, who, apparently in defiance of the counsel given by the Spirit of Prophecy, got his PhD in religious education from New York University. http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=3501 In fact, now I'm wondering if it is the contamination from non-SDA universities, specializing in Christian education, that has led him to oppose some of our own universities through his influence as GC president. I encourage Jaime Vargas, Pagophilus and Your Friend to research these matters and do the right thing.

My goodness, if people think this is a problem then they will be horrified to know that 95%+ of our theologians have PhD's from non-Adventist schools. Frankly, with only two Adventist institutions granting PhD's in the field of theology and a billion other Christians of the same faith tradition

As for masters degrees, there are definitely all sorts of opinions.

I'm here at Andrews University as an undergraduate theology major looking to go to graduate school next year. I want to study Systematic Theology and become a theologian. I have applied to 10 mainline schools (well-known places to study theology that are not Evangelical, such as Yale, Princeton, Duke), two Evangelical (Wheaton and Fuller) and one Adventist (La Sierra, sorry Berrien I've had enough...). In deciding where to apply, I have been asking people for years from differing backgrounds (pastors, theologians, bible teachers, bible workers, administrators) about whether it would be a good idea to attend somewhere else. I can tell you that only 3 out of the 40 or so I have asked have been open to the idea of me attending a non-Adventist school for a MDiv, MA, or MTS. Everyone who didn't think that going outside for a masters degree was a good idea was either a Seminary alumnus or a Seminary professor.

In other words, there definitely is a STRONG bias to send everyone to the seminary if they want to work for the church. This opinion is so widespread that it could potentially bar you from getting a job as a pastor with certain conferences.

On the other side of the coin, if you want to get into a good PhD program it would be highly advantageous to you if you could attend a mainline school because students from mainline schools (Duke, Chicago, Emory, Harvard, Yale, Vanderbilt, etc.) tend to be far more successful in getting accepted into programs where only two students are accepted per year! With this serious limitation in mind, not to mention the fact that you can earn a masters at mainline schools for free because their scholarships are so generous, it is senseless for potential graduate students of theology to not at least consider a non-Adventist education. That's not to say you can't get into a mainline PhD program with an Andrews degree or that an Andrews education would in itself be of any less quality, but it really is substantially harder.

After listening to the various viewpoints for years, I became frustrated because of the lack of consistency in the advice being given; I wanted to know a clear track to becoming a theologian and I thought there was an obvious trajectory our church promoted for accomplishing this. As I matured I realized that there really is no clear cut path to being a theologian as long as you end up with a PhD in Religion/Theology. One of my wise advisors pointed out to me that everyone speaks to their own experience. It is not wonder; if nearly every religious worker in our church goes to the Seminary then they will very likely encourage others to do the same (some VERY strongly) and may even add the idea that non-Adventists are not as well-informed on the truth as we are. As an aside, it should interest many to note that the vast majority of our Adventist tradition did not drop out of the sky after 1844, but was formulated throughout the church's history and that our t are, to a large extent, shared with many other denominations.

It is true many have the philosophy that you must be grounded in Adventist beliefs at the masters level before you go out to be educated by non-Adventists, but that is simply nonsense. We shouldn't belittle what an outside education could do for Adventist students, especially if they are firmly grounded in their faith and have had substantial experience with the church. How can we honestly say that going to a non-Adventist school WILL be harmful for them when the vast majority of our graduate-level educated thinkers hold at least one degree from a non-Adventist school?

By the way, do not be concerned at all for Alyssa's faith at Wheaton. I am familiar with Wheaton (and Adventist alumni of the school) and I can say that an Adventist attending Wheaton will feel very affirmed in their own faith even if their fellow students hold somewhat differing doctrinal beliefs on certain issues. It is EVANGELICAL; these are people that love the Lord and believe Scripture is the Word of God. Sure, her thinking will be stretched by different perspectives, but that would happen at Andrews as welll. It happened to me in my undergraduate theology education at Andrews. If even our more traditionalist thinkers encourage exploring different perspectives, don't you think they have something figured out after 3+ years in ministry, years of teaching, and 12+ years of post-secondary education?

As for me, I'm applying to mostly non-Adventist schools and believe each school offers the opportunity of a lifetime in shaping me as a better servant of Christ's kingdom and the SDA church. We have much to learn and Adventists really don't know everything!

I'm sure many SDA theologians have gone to non-SDA schools which is why I believe our gospel truths are so diluted and apostate today. I do wish and pray the best for the author but believe that even deciding to be a regular participant here on this web forum is a cause for concern.

Michael R.

Based on what you wrote I bet you will be a good theologian. You are very articulate in your writing, which denotes that your thinking process is very well developed. Also, you are open minded and not biased about "Adventist only." And probably the most important, you are very courageous, as evidenced by sharing all those thoughts in a place like this blog (being still an undergraduate student).

But be careful. If you want to pursue a career in the Adventist system as a teacher - which I don't think is your plan anyway - be aware that you may be too open-minded, too smart, too courageous to be part of the system. Keep all your other doors open., because in the SDA system you may find a "SHUT DOOR".....

Alyssa...I wish you well in your Christian walk. I'm someone who came to Adventism from the outside. Many SDAs see me as a raging theological liberal, but I am an Adventist Christian because I believe in certain key theological doctrines and choose to be a member. Just as some SDAs find my understandings too liberal, or perhaps even heretical, I find many of their "conservative" positions to be ridiculously "liberal." We approach the same church and doctrines from different world views. But at the end of the day, it doesn't make me any less of an SDA.

It seems to me that it would be hard to lose your SDA faith. If anything, you are likely to challenge many of the people you meet. The key, in my opinion, rests on the question of 'what is your faith based on?' If it is primarily rooted in being able to prove and defend your doctrines and every jot and tittle in the Holy Bible...then you could lose your faith at any seminary. On the other hand, if your faith is grounded in the true foundation, a relationship with Jesus Christ, nothing can shake you.

LaMoria Patterson - Fri, 02/10/2012 - 21:53
You write---

"I'm sure many SDA theologians have gone to non-SDA schools which is why I believe our gospel truths are so diluted and apostate today. I do wish and pray the best for the author but believe that even deciding to be a regular participant here on this web forum is a cause for concern"

Just the opposite. It is the accretions of Ellen White plus the second and third hand interpretation of Ellen White that confounds the Gospel story. Layer upon layer of do's and don'ts so muffle the witness of John and Paul as to be nothing more than Hinduism in Western clothing.

Adventism was built upon a preconceived proposition and then went looking for texts to support that proposition. Moreover, they had in their midst a young woman who could go into a trance and come out with a "The Lord Showed Me!" affirmation of those who she had great affection.

Adventism is a distortion of everything Jesus taught and did--until it got to the blaspheny of declaring that the very elect of it would finally vindicate God. That is an assertion beyond the any rational thought. Tom Z

Tom,

Isn't it hard to be a "true conservative" these days?
I mean, it's horrible to deal with those liberals that do not "conserve" the Bible as it is. They keep adding things to it. As if SDAs had not yet enough "accretions" (ca. 100,000 pages!) the "prophet" keeps writing new books once in a while. I bet liberalism is making money on this...

It's interesting that I went through this process of choosing a school for my professional/terminal degree this past application cycle. While I have been a lifelong SDA I have never attended a SDA institution for education. This includes undergraduate and graduate education. I don't think this was ideal.

I thought it important to, for my last degree, seek inspiration from God's word and other writings on where to go. Perhaps this info for medical students is applicable to seminary students. I found it helpful.

where Adventist Med students should go to school

Just a quote and some information to balance out the quote you posted.

Our laborers should be very careful not to give the impression that they are wolves stealing in to get the sheep, but should let the ministers understand their position and the object of their mission--to call the attention of the people to the truths of God's Word. There are many of these which are dear to all Christians. Here is common ground, upon which we can meet people of other denominations; and in becoming acquainted with them we should dwell mostly upon topics in which all feel an interest, and which will not lead directly and pointedly to the subjects of disagreement.--Review and Herald, June 13, 1912. {Ev 143.5}

RELIGIOUS SERVICES AT THE SANITARIUM
Sunday afternoon, at 4 P. M., there is a general Bible class in the Sanitarium parlor, for the benefit of the patients and boarders. The text used is the International Lessons. {1890, MBC90 7.3}
Sunday evening, at 7:30, divine service is held in the parlor, the chaplain usually officiating, but frequently the preaching is by ministers of other denominations. {1890, MBC90 7.4}

Tom...I totally agree with that. I guess that's why some Adventists think me a liberal!

Charles: Quince, the compilation you have created indicates that your 'worldly' experience has not destroyed your faith. There is nothing wrong with getting to live life in a safe environment, but I think the same is true with being challenged.

Perhaps. But it came close. I think I would have been more useful to Christ if I had experienced a different type of education -- an adventist education. God hates spiritual pride. The devil loves it when we think we can handle it. The challenges should, in my experience and from my limited understanding, come from God. We shouldn't seek them out.

Just a thought.

I am interested in the comments made by Michael R., because I think they reflect that he is floundering.

I am often asked by parents to suggest names of good violin teachers for their children. Most people do not understand that at least 95 percent of all violin teachers do more harm than good. This is a staggering statistic. I would think at least 50 percent of all hair stylists, lawyers, doctors, auto mechanics, plumbers, etc., are competent. Not so with violin teachers.

Most violin teachers use the Suzuki method, which many of us regard as a total fraud. Typically, young students of the Suzuki method fail to progress, get frustrated, and give up playing the violin. There is an interesting story Uri Pianka, who was concertmaster of the Houston Symphony, tells about his first violin teacher. After studying for about three years, he played for friends of his parents. His parents' friends said that he was talented but that he obviously had a bad teacher. So he studied with a new teacher. He did not play pieces or even play notes with his left hand. For months, the new teacher assigned for him the playing of open strings. In essence, he was forced to start all over.

I think we can all agree that studying economics exclusively from Marxist teachers or studying psychology exclusively from Freudian theorists would not result in a sound and comprehensive education in those particular fields. Analogous to Marxism, Freudianism, and the Suzuki method is Higher Criticism that permeates throughout the mainline divinity schools and Dispensationalism that you find in fundamentalist seminaries.

What could possibly be the value of a divinity degree from Yale? What could possibly be the value of spending three or four years studying the Old Testament within a Dispensationalist paradigm? A young violin student can play his or her way through the first eight books of the Suzuki method, which seems like an accomplishment, and yet not be a better-than-poor violinist.

I strongly recommend that budding theologians read Richard Davidson's personal essay, which can be found online here: http://www.andrews.edu/~davidson/Publications/Hermeneutics,%20Biblical/a....

Students must be wise about higher education. Even law schools are being sued for misrepresenting what the future prospects of their graduates will be. I can see the appeal of attending a mainline divinity school and arguing with teachers. I argued with my teachers ever since I was in the first grade. But do you really want to study theology with someone who sits with colleague skeptics and casts beads as they vote their opinion regarding whether particular words of Jesus recorded in Scripture were ever uttered by him? It does not sound like a worthwhile endeavor to me.

There are only four questions:
1. What do I bring to Wheaton?

2. What does Wheaton offer me?

3. Will that interaction bring a message of salvation to a dying world.?

4. Will I be a more effective voice of that message?

The answer to all four. It depends upon you not the institution.

Tom Z

Doctrine is important.

1Ti 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Q

Quince:

Re question #5, how can anyone know?
The answer to this question is ALWAYS subjective. How many people get a direct and clear answer from God on issues like this? Like, "I asked a sign from God, to change the color of my car overnight, and yes, in the morning the blue car was now red." Well, this would be a clear sign.

Other than that, I think we have to use our brain, know what our gifts and abilities are, and use the best opportunities offered to us. I believe that if we do this, God will be happy with our choices and will support us.

I don't care where one gets his or her theological education, as long as it is a theological education, not mere indoctrination. Andrews can be as liberating as any other place with a decent library. I always liked Kevin Vanhoozer (I hope he's still at Wheaton), not necessarily for his theology, but because he went out of the narrow circus of systematic theology to interact with contemporary hermeneutics. That in itself is an education - stepping out of your little arrogant box.

Theology is only a field of texts and ideas. Once you grasp that, you either embrace Christ's simple religion of kindness and give up theology; you learn humility and accept that theology is a dialogue, not a sermon; or you embrace the humanity of it all - texts and ideas - and become an atheist. Any other option leads to ideological deafness, terrorism (as in hijacking politics), or the Middle Ages.

I have a few questions for Alyssa:
1) Why do you want to study theology?
2) Do you understand the difference between religion and theology?
3) Do you understand the dangers of theology?

It is good to remember that Jesus and the twelve disciples didn't go to the "high" education centers of their time. Maybe there is a good reason for that.

I am not against a good "education" but at the same time you have to be aware that theology (from a SDA or non SDA institution) can destroy your religion. There are many examples of this on the Spectrum forum alone.

Also, how do you understand theology in regard to the truth? Even if Wheaton is an evangelical college, there is so much that they don't know and don't understand. Is there anything they can teach you that cannot be taught in a SDA institution?

You asked:

If I were going to law school or veterinary medicine school, this conversation would be moot, I reasoned. Why was attending a non-Adventist theological school so different?

If you are not able to see that law (or veterinary medicine) and theology require different approaches then maybe you should take more time before making a definitive choice.

At the end, it is about you and your walk with God. Some people went to Adventist colleges/universities and lost their faith anyway while some others went to non SDA institutions and have a strong faith. Wherever you go, have both eyes open, your heart close to Jesus, and your faith anchored in the word of God.

Wheaton is not the School of the Prophets but neither is Andrews.

Both institutions gives the student opportunity to to engage in conversations with mature students of Scripture. The advantage of Wheaton is that it gives an Adventist emerging scholar opportunity to examine one's own belief system in an objective analyitical fashion without fear of censure or loss of
conference sponsorship. .Read the list of contributors to the SDA Bible Commentary and you will find the majority have their advanced degrees from non-Adventist Universities or Seminaries.

The ones I knew best, lead me into an understanding of the Gospel until I was introduced to their mentors. F.F. Bruce, John R. W. Stott, John Dillenberger, and others.

The outcome is to have a better grasp of the Gospel, not a closer knit relationship with an institutional church. Tom Z

@Anonynous7:"...Is there anything they can teach you that cannot be taught in a SDA institution?"

Alyssa: My question would be the following: Is there anything that an SDA institution can teach you that cannot be taught at Wheaton?

Go for it, get your degree, and keep following your call. I am sure Wheaton will give you a broad theological perspective - and I am not sure that a SDA school could do the same at this time. May be if you come to LSU...

As someone whose journey mirrors, in many ways, Alyssa's (I also studied theology at Southern and started out doing ministry for Georgia-Cumberland, before going on to do graduate study in theology and philosophy at non-Adventist institutions), I can think of two additional, beneficial factors, other than the ones already mentioned, of wandering beyond the traditional track of theological education (without necessarily being lost).

The first is social. The greatest hindrance we have with working with and communicating with other Christians is not theological; it is social. Adventists are comfortable hanging out with Adventists. This is true of leaders, as well. We do not know how to engage in meaningful friendships, and therefore conversations, with others that are different from us. The place most people learn to do this is college. We have our own system, where Adventist learn to relate to, date, and marry other Adventists. If one goes to Andrews afterwards, one learns how to do this again, in a more specified context. One of the things that I appreciated about studying theology at a multi-denominational seminary was the opportunity to develop socially, and to learn to be an Adventist in a diverse context.

The second, and this sounds counter-intuitive, is the opportunity I had to honestly deconstruct (and reconstruct) my theological framework in a neutral setting. I think all who "do" theology eventually have to go through this process of self-critique and appropriation, whether we want to or not. Many of my friends who have gone to Andrews do not do this at the seminary, nor have they gotten the tools to do so constructively; rather they are assured that they are "right" and everyone else "wrong." This leaves them to go through the deconstructive/critical phase of their theological development much later when they are a) alone and b) in the context of ministry to their respective congregations (who are along for quite the theological roller coaster ride!).

Also, an undergraduate theology degree from an Adventist undergraduate institution should provide many students that are inclined to study at a non-Adventist institution adequate resources to critically and thoughtfully engage the wider world of ideas. Most my friends at Fuller did not have the advantage of studying theology in undergrad, so did not have the advantages of coming to seminary to engage and expand their own theological frameworks. This made seminary a very difficult experience for them. From my perspective, such a student would benefit more from studying theology in a specified denominational context: Nobody comes from nowhere. You can't study theology abstracted from a context and a tradition.

Anon7,

Can you please kindly make a short (or long...) list of such issues?

Hmm for some reason it wasn't working.

my e-mail is mikeyswen79@gmail.com Christian. Please do shoot me an e-mail!

Zane Yi, wonderful insights! Thank you for sharing!

@George Tichy:
Here is a short list:
- the state of the dead
- hell
- the two resurrections
- the sanctuary
- the judgement
- Babylon
- the rapture
- the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation

(plus, of course, the doctrines that are more distinctly Adventist).

@Josh:

I'm sad and happy to hear of your experience at an Adventist school. Just for contrast I would say that my own experience has not been nearly as regulated as yours. I have certainly been exposed mostly to an Adventist perspective and a defense of the Church's stances and, hence, been motivated to affirm the Church's doctrine. However, I never personally experienced any form of thought policing at my most recent school, though I have definitely experienced it in Church, Sabbath school, and Academy.

Such occurrences are truly the bane of Adventism and the action that eventually led to every single ex-Adventist's flight from the church that I know/know of. Our generation definitely needs to persevere beyond this because the cost of lost members is too high. We're all disillusioned by the thought policing and perpetual childhood you talk about!

@Anonymous7

I don't know, I think you can gain good exposure to those listed doctrines in personal readings and in an undergraduate education. THe purpose of attending outside institutions is not to get converted (nor do these institutions try to do so) but it is to further understand contemporary Christian thought closer to the source. These schools are very diverse and you can be pretty much any religion and be given respect and dignity even if you are one of the few Adventists in that context.

I'm all for experiencing not just an evangelical university but a very liberal one.

Anon7,

All the issues you listed are usually implanted in people's minds during their early years in Adventism. When someone finishes college (seminary) the person is most probably already very well acquainted with those issues, even with the SDA-non-Biblical so called "doctrines" like the IJ.

Thus, going to another school for graduate studies should not be a problem at all. It will just broaden the person's intellectual/academic horizon.

Why the fear about someone going to a non-SDA graduate School? I bet it's the fear that the person will be exposed to amore independent thinking (which SDAs don't like) and will probably be reviewing some "truths" taught by Adventism.

Any fear of such a review??? I bet there is! And justifiably! You know what happened to me when I had access to more info and felt compelled to review my theology 30 years ago. I then decided to adopt the Sola Scriptura principle (like in Congress, a clear bill, with no pork attached to it!)
And firm I stand.

@George Tichy:

You make a lot of ridiculous statements, one of them being that SDAs don't like independent thinking. You make a generalization that is uncalled for because this has not been my experience. I am not saying that every SDA has an open mind or is an independent thinker but you cannot say that, in general, SDAs don't like independent thinking.

You decided to apply the Sola Scriptura? This is good for you. I hope that it will transpire someday in your comments.

anon-

I spent 3 years in the army and came out an Adventist

I spent 4 years at the University of Illinois and came out an Adventist

I spent 2 years at Northwestern and came out an Adventist

1 spend 8 years at Marquettee and came out an Adventist

1 spend 8 years a LLU and came out an Adventist.

1. Spend 9 years on the Board of Trustees at LLU and came out an Adventist.

1 spent 11 years on the Board of Trustees at Southern Missionary College and came out a Presbyterian. I finally saw how cookies were made and honored.

Tom Z.

Alyssa, Jan Paulsen studied in Tübingen...if you are tempted to do so for some time, contact me, you can stay with my family...

The above was in answer to someone named "Jaime" on Feb. 9.