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Top Ten Adventist Stories in 2011
For the official Seventh-day Adventist church organization, 2011 was a year marked by major realignments in the world field and grand plans for the future contrasted by struggles with employees and divisions.
10. Process, timetable unveiled for review of theology of ordination—The Biblical Research Institute at the world church headquarters will coordinate the process of studying ordination with corresponding Biblical research committees in each of the church's 13 world divisions, church President Ted N. C. Wilson announced in October. While some divisions have very active Biblical Research Committees, other divisions will have to create such committees to be part of the process. Each division is asked to request their Biblical research committee to study the theology of ordination and its implications for church practices in that region during 2012 and report in 2013 to their year end meetings. From December 2013 to June 2014, the General Conference Theology of Ordination Study Committee will analyze the materials received from the divisions and prepare a combined report that will go to the General Conference Executive Committee for possible placement on the 2015 General Conference Session Agenda.
9. Mission to the Cities Voted—Top leadership of the Church endorsed a plan to evangelize the world's cities, beginning in 2013 with New York City. The vote came as a practical response to world church President Ted N. C. Wilson's call to prioritize outreach to large urban centers, where half of the world's population now lives. Historically, rural areas have responded to the Adventist Church's message of hope more than cities, said world church Secretary G. T. Ng. "We are a church of islands and villages," he told more than 300 delegates at world church headquarters on October 9 for Annual Council business meetings.” Wilson called for a comprehensive approach to urban evangelism.
8. ADRA cuts headquarters staff—In February, Rudi Maier the president of the Adventist Development and Relief Agency announced the agency would cut 20 percent of its headquarters staff and adjust its management structure, citing gradual decline in revenues as the reason for the cut. Earlier in the month the agency also replaced two of its vice presidents—Vice President for Programs Mark Webster and Vice President for Finance Gideon Mutero—with Ken Flemmer and Robyn Mordeno. Later Board level reviews of the organization’s finances showed strong contribution numbers; however, the employee cuts that had already been made were left in place.
7. Samuel Korantang-Pipim cancels speaking appointments and resigns—In May, Michigan Conference president Jay Gallimore announced the resignation of Samuel Korantang Pipim who had served as the director of public campus ministries for the Michigan conference. He had also helped to found Generation of Youth for Christ (GYC), led the opposition to the ordination of women for years, and wrote a number of books supporting conservative readings of the Bible. In his resignation letter, Pipim said that it was with great sorrow and shame that during his overseas travel he had a moral fall with a young woman and yielded to a “temptation of the moment.” His resignation received huge attention in Africa and the United States.
6. Three La Sierra University Employees File Suit—In July, the law firm of McCuneWright LLP, representing La Sierra University employees Dr. Jeffry Kaatz, Dr. Jim Beach, and Dr. Gary Bradley, announced that a lawsuit had been filed in the Superior Court of California over the coerced resignations of the employees. Named as defendants were Ricardo Graham, Daniel R. Jackson, Larry Blackmer, the North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists, the Pacific Union Conference of Seventh-day Adventists and La Sierra University. The suit grew out of the dispute between La Sierra University and the Adventist Accrediting Association over how biology is taught at La Sierra.
5. Atlantic Union College Closes—The Church's oldest educational institution, Atlantic Union College, announced in July it would have to lay off its entire staff of 97 full-time employees, because of an inability to secure state approval for the partnership proposal with Washington Adventist University in Maryland. Students at AUC were advised to enroll instead at Washington Adventist University. Leaders of both institutions had been working to secure permission from Massachusetts' education authorities to operate AUC as a satellite campus of WAU following the loss of its accreditation from a regional accrediting agency effective July 31. The New England Association of Schools and Colleges cited financial reasons in its decision.
4. Inter-American Seminary Achieves Full Accreditation—The Association of Theological Schools granted the Inter-American Adventist Theological Seminary full accreditation status this summer, giving the Church in the region its own fully accredited institution offering graduate degrees in theology and religion. The institution, operated with a distributed campus, offers degrees taught in English, Spanish and French to active Adventist ministers in 10 countries throughout the church in Inter-America. It offers a Master of Arts in Pastoral Theology, a Master of Arts in Religion, and a Doctor of Ministry.
3. Realignment of administrative structures affecting the Middle East and other territories—Major restructuring of the church’soperations in the Middle East was voted in October with responsibilities for the area moving from the church's Trans-European and Euro-Africa divisions to church headquarters. The newly formed Greater Middle East Union Mission is home to 21 countries and more than 500 million people, but it has only 2,900 Adventists worshipping in 70 churches and companies. Other areas were also affected by the voted changes. Under the new organization, South Sudan becomes part of the church's East-Central Africa Division and the church's Southern-Asia Pacific Division will oversee the Pakistan Union. Culturally, Pakistan can better be served by the division that also serves Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, leaders said. The church's Euro-Asia Division will absorb Afghanistan. The world church headquarters will directly oversee the Israel Field and the new Greater Middle East Union Mission. That union mission will also include the Trans-Mediterranean territories. However, South Cyprus will remain in the Trans-European Division.
Changes were also voted for Guam-Micronesia Mission, an administrative region comprising islands in the western Pacific Ocean. It will now report to the denomination's North American Division rather than the Southern Asia-Pacific Division.
2. Defeated Policy Variance Request Seen as Blow to Women in Leadership—A request to allow commissioned ministers in the North American and Trans-European divisions to serve as conference presidents sparked a lengthy debate during the world church's Annual Council. In the end, the controversial measure was defeated by a written ballot vote of 167 to 117. The 50-vote margin defeating the NAD proposal also effectively ended the TED request, which would have permitted commissioned ministers to head church unions as well as conferences.
1. North American and Trans European Divisions Reaffirm Their Votes Supporting Commissioned Ministers—In a carefully balanced pair of actions, church leaders in North America voted October 31 to fully participate in the world church's recently launched study of the theology of ordination while also reaffirming the division's unique policy of allowing ordained or commissioned ministers to serve as presidents of local conferences and missions. The latter action, voted by nearly a 3 to 1 margin, broadens the opportunities for commissioned leaders to be elected to the top position in any of the 58 conferences that make up the 1.1-million member church region. The pair of votes came three weeks after the defeat of a similar action by the church's Executive Committee at its Annual Council. The model constitution document addressed by the GC states that conference leadership can only be held by an ordained pastor; the NAD policy, while valid within its territory, places the region at variance with the constitutional template. In November the leaders of the Trans European Division also reaffirmed their previous votes granting administrative unions permission to manage the matter of parity between ordained and commissioned ministers within existing policy and previously voted guidelines.
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A great summation of the year's top stories, and impressive the role that Spectrum played in covering them. Here's to a new year of keeping informed and engaging in rigorous, vigorous, vital conversation.
Happy 2012!
Every one of these stories details events and matters of policy, institutions, ordination and ministry. No doubt these are important aspects of Adventist life and changes at this level influence the life of the church and its many members.
But what about the 20 million or so members and their lives around the world whose lives are barely affected by administrative decisions and bureaucratic crises? Was there not one event of serious intellectual or social significance? Are there no important stories emerging in China, Africa, Russia and Latin America? Must almost all good things come out of Maryland? Must we continue to define the church as what happens by vote, by employed administrators, and by policy changes?
I thank Bonnie for her intrepid reporting but also appeal to Spectrum readers around the world to bring the best narratives, videos and commentary to this site. Where is the power of the people to shape and describe the rich texture of Adventist life? Can we have another list that reflects Adventism in politics, in the arts, in media, in science, in human rights and healthcare, and in world events.... please!
Graeme
Clearly, "Top Ten Adventist Stories in 2011" is through the eyes of Spectrum's lens. Fair enough, given I am reading a Spectrum web blog/column. However, surely there are other pertinent Adventist stories that don't necessarily add momentum to what I perceive to be Spectum's agenda to undermine the leadership of our church and supplant official church teachings with their own brand of Adventism. In Australia (where I live) we are bombarded by the biased reporting by a certian section of the media driven by their desire to topple the minority goverment and their ego-driven hope of changing the values of the Australian people. When will Spectrum's reporting of news and events include other worthwhile issues that don't belie a confilct of interest. I have been reading Spectrum's web page only for the past year or so and am amazed at the brazenness of their crusade against the church and its teachings. It seems to me that those who are driving Spectrum's agenda (and many of its commentors) need to "take a shower", get some perspective and ask God for some humility. Happy New Year!
"...what I perceive to be Spectum's agenda to undermine the leadership of our church and supplant official church teachings with their own brand of Adventism....I have been reading Spectrum's web page only for the past year or so and am amazed at the brazenness of their crusade against the church and its teachings. ..." - Prbigkev
Each person has her/his own "perception" and in my perception I see Spectrum´s "agenda" (if there is actually one) being very different from the one described above. Among other issues, for me the areas in which Spectrum helps people to think more widely and more clearly are:
Informing the public on issues that are often are covered up by the Church leaders,
Requiring more transparency,
Dealing with issues difficult to deal with, asking questions that have not been yet properly answered, Condemning abuse of power,
Rejecting fables and unproved stories that became part of the Adventis core,
Being an opportunity for people to express their opinions even if divergent from the church's official positions,
Stimulating critical thinking and objectivity,
Exposing and discussing politics in the church that have contaminated the whole field,and finally,
Learning from Elaine Nelson!!!
I understand, not everyone appreciates the freedom of thinking, expression, and speech. For some people the "liberty to think" is not an important value, and they resent when others practice it.
I also understand that it's much easier to be a parrot!
=============================
HAPPY NEW YEAR SPECTRUMITES!!!
(And keep utilizing your brains; do not stop thinking independently!)
=============================
I am adding this quote from another thread (Today Did Not Exist For Some Adventists), just to illustrate, why we have to be independent thinkers, to avoid being misinformed just because the church "archives" (aka hides) information:
"Ladies and gentlemen, google search the GRACE AMADON COLLECTION and you will discover what the Adventist Church was hiding for over 50 years. Just a note, it is a lengthy material. You can also locate the church response and why it was archived for 50 years." - dj
and in this new year, mostly awondering where is our dear Elaine.....did I/we miss something important? Hope she is on vacation! To someplace wonderful...???? We have ALL learned so much from her.
Yes, I have been missing her, too. Where is she?
Her input is urgently needed regarding some new issues that are being discussed. She is always so prompt to jump into it... Did she get tired of it?
George...thank you, thank you for the heads up about the Grace Amadon Collection. I haven't looked at it yet, but these are the gold veins that I'm looking for. signed, Little Miss Looking for the Truth.
It's interesting to note that the major story of 2011 was "North American and Trans European Divisions Reaffirm Their Votes Supporting Commissioned Ministers." The Church in the NAD and TED is indeed moving the Church forward.
Fay,
These things always catch my attention.
Of course, I don't consider them being a, "crusade against the church and its teachings" or "an agenda to undermine the leadership of our church and supplant official church teachings" - as you could read somewhere above.
----------------------------
Daniel Masela,
Slowly but surely. I hope we will experience more progress in that direction a little faster, though. If "corporations are people" (Romney), whe should soon admit that WOMEN ARE PEOPLE too...
The mission of Spectrum is to offer the Church an unfettered voice as appossed to that of institutionalism. Spectrum was born in a period of many voices--all speaking with "authority".
There was Answers to Questions on Doctrine, Letters to the Churches, The three or four stages of Robert Brinsmead, The White Lie,The Prophetess of Health, Des Ford, and the "self supporting voices" of the deep South. Then the voice of authority; the Review which altered its tune as challenges seemed to appear from every quarter.
The mind-set of institutionalism persists. A case in point. The Current Sabbath School Quarterly:"Glimpses of our God" with the Principal Contributor Dr. Jo Ann Davidson: A serious Biblical Scholar. Yet the inside cover carries a full page ad with the Headline: "Let Ellen G. White help you study!" a Pacific Press publication.
Here we had a series of studies on the Revelation of God found in the canon only to suggest that
a primary source of authority is found in extra canonical writings of an uneducated woman with a urge to sound profound by the use of uncited sources and that coupled with a Nineteen Centruy world view tainted by a Great Disappointment out of a faulted eschatology.
Certainly, Spectrum is a necessary voice of reason to a mislead assumption of authority by a power elite.
The words of D. Martyn Llody-Jones in his little paper back Inter-Varsity Press 1958
"Christianity is Christ! It is not a philosophy, indeed not even a religion. It is the good news that God hath visited, and redeemed his people and that He has done so by sending His only begotten Son into this world to live, and die, and rise again. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last! In other words, He is the one Authority. page 29
If and when Spectrum loses that focus, it will be simply vanity. Tom Z.
I agree, George. The Seventh-day Adventist Church cannot be revived until men and women are given the same ministerial license,
George, I did not know that I would find you on this post. Thanks for quoting me. I am disturbed in the direction in which the church is heading. Everytime I discover more information I question the honesty of some of our leaders.
For example, google search "Adventist Contribution to chemical warfare"
or search why the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement was established. The SDA GC has contributed to a catastrophic loss of life among Adventist in Germany during Hitler's reign. The Adventist Church in Germany did not want to support the war. The General Conference support the the war and wanted them to bear arms. They refused and were persecuted. Out of that era came the SDA Reform Movement. By the way, the only objectors to the Nazi's were the Jehovah Witnessess.
By the way, I am a third generation traditional seventh day adventist and always will be. But my bible states that we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Also, one prophet says that we have more to fear from within than without.
dj
Google search "operation whitecoat" or Adventist contribution to chemical warfare
Or if you have the time google search the millions of dollars the adventist church has invested in the stockmarket ---with wall street gamblers. Tithes and offerings. Asked them how much they have lost on wall street?
Or you can google adventist investment in Lifepoint a failed company where millions of dollars were invested "tithes and offerings" anyway here's a link for you,
http://www.advmca.org/news/gc_letters/lifepoint_article_followup_letters...
You can also search on the internet how the Adventist Union in Jamaica lost 3 million dollars on a onzi scheme.
Just a starting point for continued research.
dj
the biggest little news story that everybody MISSED at the end of 2011?
and which may require substantial revision of a few cherished beliefs?....
with the potential to impact a basic premise underlying all of this threads 2011 stories????
at least for those who literally interpret ancient writings attributed to Moses......
let Al Jazeera English show you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZDf2CIMb1A
or read about it here in sci mag:
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/12/dead-sea-dried-up-in-past....
begin quote:
The Dead Sea region has been a center of human activity for...............
........................ HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS—and the layers of sediments buried beneath the lake, scientists think, hold clues to the changing environment in which those cultures existed. Now, an analysis of sediments drawn from the center of the lake basin reported here this week at the American Geophysical Union's annual meeting reveals that, contrary to what scientists previously believed, the lake once completely dried up.
The study is part of the Dead Sea Deep Drilling Project, a $2.6 million effort begun 10 years ago to recover the longest, most continuous, and best-preserved archive of environmental and seismic information in the Middle East. Following two drilling efforts, one lasting from November 2010 to January 2011, and one in March 2011, project researchers have now extracted a 1-kilometer-long core of sediment from the center of the basin, representing roughly...............
................... 200,000 YEARS OF CLIMATE HISTORY....... for the region. The biggest surprise so far? About 120,000 years ago, the Dead Sea essentially dried up.
Scientists didn't think that would happen. At 425 meters below sea level, the Dead Sea is at the lowest continental elevation on Earth, and it is about 34% saline. That extreme saltiness, scientists thought, would ultimately prevent the lake water from completely evaporating. They were convinced that the lowest the water level in the Dead Sea could sink was about 150 meters below its current level.
But a layer of pebbles discovered in the new core calls that assumption into question, team member Steven Goldstein, a geochemist at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, New York, said at a press conference at the meeting. Most of the core is a series of black and white layers of sediment, representing seasonal variations. Dark sediments containing mud and silt from winter floods alternate with summertime sediment rich with white calcium carbonate precipitated from a seasonally shrinking lake. "It's an absolutely phenomenal record," Goldstein said.
end quote
and for those who question the layers as "annual" in order to deny the extreme age of the cores compared to their fundamental interpretation of Moses writing? check the details of the layers:
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/assets_c/2011/12/sn-deadsea-thumb-...
notice that the dark bands correspond to occasional scattered winter showers washing dirt down into the Dead Sea, and the white layers are from summer evaporation.....
This startling story coming out of the Holy Land is so new that the cores have not been analyzed for details yet, but estimates are that drilling has so far pulled up cores representing over 200,000 yrs worth of annual layers.
too late for Usher, EGW, and George McReady Price to explain this for us, but maybe David Read and Cliff Goldstein can get on it and either explain, deny, ignore, or reinterpret things for us.
you don't stop having fun because you get old..... you get old because you stop having fun.
It would be fun to have both the Goldsteins do a debate
John Alfke - Mon, 01/02/2012 - 13:08--"The Dead Sea region has been a center of human activity for...............
........................ HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS—and the layers of sediments buried beneath the lake, scientists think, hold clues to the changing environment in which those cultures existed."
Here we go again. Unwarranted speculation masquerading as science. To those who are enamored with the idea that the earth is millions of years old and that evolution is fact; I would direct their attention to the creation of canyons by the eruption of Mt. St. Helens on May 18, 1980. The walls of those canyons have sedimentary deposits much like those found in the Grand Canyon. If we didn't know that the sediment was deposited in a matter of hours, we would assume that they were centuries old. Since no one has left us an eyewitness account of how and when the sedimentary deposits at the Dead Sea were formed, it is pure speculation to assume they it took hundreds of thousands of years to form. If fact the only reason scientists take that position is that they have already decided not to believe the history of the earth as described in the Bible. Hence, their world view automatically causes them to make false assumptions.
"Everytime I discover more information I question the honesty of some of our leaders." - dj
DJ, my disappointment and loss of confidence happened many years ago. Imagine that I spent four (four!) years in college being trained to be a pastor and Bible teacher, but was never told about the so many problems regarding EGW, 1844, IJ, and so on. This is dishonesty at its worst! It was only in the early 1980's that I learned about these aberrations and decided to re-study my theology. It took me literally hundreds of hours, but I did it.
After that I have been extremely careful with those ultra-conservatives that defend the church no matter what. They usually don't care much about the facts and the truth. Unfortunately!
..."no one has left us an eyewitness account of how and when the sedimentary deposits at the Dead Sea were formed,"...
but nature has..... in the summer the valley is a desert...and as the water evaporates, a layer of salt is condensed, and settles to the bottom as a white layer..... the following winter and spring, any rains at all, anywhere around the basin, wash in darker muds into the basin, which settle at the low point which is where they drilled...
and if you looked at the picture of the layers, you can see the alternating layers of dark and white...annual layers which they have quickly counted to indicate in excess of 200,000 layers...or 200,ooo years of age....so far. and at the rate the layers accumulated, they estimate the total depth will account for upwards of a half MILLION years of climatic evidence.
..."The walls of those canyons (near Mt St Helens) have sedimentary deposits much like those found in the Grand Canyon."...
not so.....the "flood" caused by the overfilling of Spirit Lake, together with any melt water from snow, washed small "canyons" into the existing volcanic soil, or thru ash which had been deposited during the eruption. the walls of those "canyons" are primarily volcanic material.
the grand Canyon layers are composed of multiple, different layers, deposited at different times, composed of different materials, alternating between limestones and mudstones which had been laid down in shallow seas, AND desert sands blown in as layers...
this sandwiching of dry sediments in between "wet" layers proves there was no one flood....how do you get a desert sandstorm in the middle of a world wide flood?.there had to be at least two floods...one before the desert layer, and one after...just for the Grand Canyon. Next problem? this has to be repeated up the Geological Staircase in Zion....where there is an even wider band of sand with even more clear "cross bedding" caused by blowing wind....again, sandwiched between multiple "wet" layers.
..."the only reason scientists take that position is that they have already decided not to believe the history of the earth as described in the Bible. Hence, their world view automatically causes them to make false assumptions."...Horatio
that reasoning could be seen as logically backwards. scientists follow the evidence in the Book of Nature, and since there are potentially natural ways that the layers could have been reasonably made, they do not need to call upon miracles from God to explain the creation of the alternating layers. The assumptions scientists make are based on believing that what God has left in the Book of Nature can be understood by itself, without reverting to explanations from 3-4000 yr old stories
you don't stop having fun because you get old..... you get old because you stop having fun.
The skeptic always has a "plausible" explanation. The layering in the Grand Canyon is clearly from a massive flood. Even evolutionists are beginning to recognize that. The layering is too perfect and even, with no erosion between layers, to have been laid down over a long period of time. We don't always have all the answers, but all geological phenomena can be explained from a Biblical perspective. It all boils down to one's world view. I choose the Biblical model, because it is consistent with the evidence. The evidence for a worldwide flood is overwhelming; but those who don't believe the Bible will find many alternative explanations. It is a sign of the times that so many professed Christians disbelieve so much of the Bible.
"We don't always have all the answers, but all geological phenomena can be explained from a Biblical perspective." - Horatio
You can't have both: If you don't have all answers you cannot explain all phenomena!
They are mutually exclusive, either/or.
--------
How can one argue with people who write things like this?
Paraphrasing: "I see some blue cars, but ALL cars are red."
What type of "rational thinking" is this?...
I don't think it's safe to base one's FAITH on this type of mental manipulations, totally illogical.
But, that's just me...
It may not work for you, George....but it works for many who are not used to, or understand, critical thinking. It sounds beautiful to those with itchy ears who are only used to listening to parroting language. The bottom line is to be soothed
Fay,
That's always my problem, I always assume that everyone makes great effort to utilize critical thinking.
Apparently my assumption is false...
layering in the Grand Canyon is clearly from........ a....... massive flood. ....Horatio
how about this: layering in the GC is clearly from MANY flood events.
check the cross section here:
http://investigatethepossibilities.org/Assets/grandcanyonnarrative/grand...
the top layer, the Kaibab limestone, is a "wet' layer....since limestone comes from the life and mega death of tiny living organisms in a shallow sea dropping to the bottom and eventually becoming compacted and cemented into rock.
under that, and therefore older, is another wet layer limestone...the Toroweap formation....from another earlier shallow sea. Shallow? because the tiny organisms do not grow in deep water where sunlight does not reach.
next layer down? the Coconino sandstone...a "dry layer"....which shows signs of having been dunes, blown around in a desert.......with lots of "cross bedding" layers...and tracks of insects which could not have happened underwater.
next layer down? the Hermit Shale...which is a mud stone, probably deposited in shallow water as muds were eroded off nearby mountains and deposited layer upon layer .
here is the first problem for the "flood" hypothesis:
if you hike down the Bright Angel trail at the Grand Canyon, you will be able to see that these layers are smoothly layered...not all jumbled up as would be expected from a violent, earth destroying world wide Noah's flood.... the layers themselves are smooth layers, AND the changes between the layers are abrupt....not mixed together......as tho they were caused by separate events.... not a one time flood mixing everything up.
next problem? if there was only ONE NOAH"S FLOOD, how is it that wind blown sand ...the Coconino Sandstone....got layered in between what are wet deposited layers above and below?
only answer is that there had to be multiple "flooding events"..... not just one.
and the "events" were gentle enuf to make the layers evenly laid down, not all jumbled up.
the difference between science and dogmatic belief is that the scientists look at the evidence, ask how this cudda happened, and try to find reasonable answers....while the "believer" too often just relies on what they have been told about what the ancient nomads wrote....without studying the actual evidence.
you don't stop having fun because you get old..... you get old because you stop having fun.
..."all geological phenomena can be explained from a Biblical perspective. It all boils down to one's world view. I choose the Biblical model, because it is consistent with the evidence"....Horatio.
so why are there earthquakes?
science explains them with plate tectonics....caused by heat within the earth
and the Biblical model? because God is angry?
Psalm 18:7
Then the earth reeled and rocked; the foundations also of the mountains trembled and quaked, because........... He (God) was angry.
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I (God) will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the WRATH (anger) of the Lord of hosts in the day of his fierce ANGER.
Exodus 19:18
Now Mount Sinai was wrapped in smoke because the Lord had descended on it in fire. The smoke of it went up like the smoke of a kiln, and the whole mountain trembled greatly.
and in this case, God deliberately opened up a crack in the earth just to kill some guys...and their whole households!!!
Numbers 16:32
And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods.
and the EGW theory of earthquakes? she still argues that God causes quakes, then she comes up with a faulty belief (probably current in her day) that underground coal fires cause quakes.
"The coal and oil frequently ignite and burn beneath the surface of the earth. Thus rocks are heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. The action of the water upon the lime adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes and fiery issues.
http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1977/August/ellen-g.-white-and-s...
you don't stop having fun because you get old..... you get old because you stop having fun.
"layering in the Grand Canyon is clearly from........ a....... massive flood. ...." - Horatio
Horatio, please answer the following questions, if you will:
1) Do you have a degree in Geology? YES___ NO___
2) If not, Have studied geological issues extensively by yourself, to a point of becoming actually an expert in the field? YES___ NO___
I just want to make sure that your assertions in the field of geology are not deceiving. I want to believe you, but before I do that I must be sure you are a knowledgeable scientist or a very well self-educated person in the field.
I am not that much acquainted with geological layers and other geological studies (not my area of expertise), this is why I just shut up on the issue and rather learn from people who actually know something about it. Hope you do the same - I am sure you do practice the same type of intellectual honesty, right? That's really great!
"how about this: layering in the GC is clearly from MANY flood events." - John Alfke
We actually need more flooding events there, some that could actually clean things up a little bit, so that the church can move on into the 21st Century...
>George....I don't have a degree in geology either......just a life long interest to find out why God's Book of Rocks tells a different story than what others told me the Book of Inspiration does.
but it doesn't take an advanced degree to see the smooth, even layers which were not laid down during Noah's alleged, catastrophic , violent, churning flood.
but it does require that one at least look into it...instead of simply believing what we all used to hear from believers based on what they had heard was what they thought the ancient writers of the Bible had said.
and that sandstone which interrupts the top "wet" layers at the GC? the Coconino Sandstone?
if you "climb the Grand Staircase" up to the top of Zion, you will find another even thicker layer of Navajo Sandstone drifted in between more "wet" layers.....
here is a diagram of the layers.... with the kaibab Limestone (a "wet" layer, deposited in a shallow sea) at the bottom of the Zion area.....the Kaibab is the top layer at the Grand Canyon. At the top of the Zion deposits are more limestones..... more "wet layers".... but in between is the Navajo Sandstone..... a layer of dry, desert dunes blow in in between the two wet layers.... How is this possible during one giant Noah's flood?
Unless twice God had to perform miracles, and have two desert sandstorms in the middle of the world wide flood....either that, or maybe things are not as we were told.
you don't stop having fun because you get old..... you get old because you stop having fun.
There isn't enough time in a day to address all of the fallacies presented in the above posts. And, frankly, I have better things to do than to respond to the same old hackneyed attempts to deny the truths of the Bible. By your standards only professional scientists are qualified to understand the world around them. And we must understand the Bible as interpreted by scientists. By your standards none of the disciples (except maybe Judas) would have been qualified to be leaders in the early church because they were simple laymen. I start with the Bible as my standard, since it has always proved to be reliable. You start with science as your standard, even though theories change as often as Imelda Marcos changed shoes. We can't even have a discussion. I don't know why I even bother to respond to any of this.
No, I'm not a geologist, but I've studied the explanations from both sides; and the flood theory makes the most sense, in spite of all the obfuscation from the other side. I'm a biologist, but that isn't good enough for the Bevins or Georges of the world because they've decided to swallow the evolutionary fairy tale, no matter what the evidence suggests. This discussion is nearly pointless because we are each wearing different glasses.
Are there any SDA's left on this forum?
John,
When I wrote "GC", I didn't refer to the Grand Canyon... kkkk
John Alfke: "but it doesn't take an advanced degree to see the smooth, even layers which were not laid down during Noah's alleged, catastrophic , violent, churning flood."
Again you're making unwarranted assumptions about the flood and how the deposits were made. Models that simulate flood action have shown how sedimentary layers like that of the Grand Canyon, could have been deposited. At some point during the flood the rain stopped and things begin to settle. Water receded. Dams formed, and then broke. Everything we see is consistent with the Biblical record--unless one has decided to reject that record in favor of scientists who weren't there when it happened.
Does anyone here still believe in the virgin birth? That's not scientific. How about Jesus rising from the dead or performing miracles? That's not scientific. I already know that many here don't believe in predictive prophecy. So just why do so many unbelievers frequent this site?
None of my answers will ever satisfy you guys because you won't accept a Biblical answer, only a scientific one; and only selected scientific answers, the ones that keep to the party line.
Horatio,
The problem is NOT what the Bible teaches. It's what the Bible DOESN'T teach but some people want to make the Bible say what they think happened in the past - and then they call it "a biblical answer."
It is a big dilemma, a complex issue. What should we do when a biblical author wrote something and now we can see something different in mother Nature? Being dogmatic about what one feels to be true is not a healthy approach.
Being open to new evidence and facts is a must for intellectual honesty.
At the same time, trying to reconcile belief and fact is sometimes an overwhelming challenge.
Spectrum isn't always right.
I am just grateful many times to hear different perspectives. It provides (for me) a space to think without feeling guilty.
(I am weary, though, of all this evolution talk--to be honest. I zone out very quickly when that topic comes up.)
"None of my answers will ever satisfy you guys because you won't accept a Biblical answer, only a scientific one; and only selected scientific answers, the ones that keep to the party line."
What I don't understand are why people even consider the science answers and try to come up with alternative science answers to those produced by mainstream science that are more compatible with what the Bible teaches.
If the Bible says it, we must believe it....and we don't need evidence, of any type ever. If we get into the evidence trumping game it is tacit agreement that the Bible might be wrong. Arguing with scientists is a slippery slope my friend. I beg you don't take the first step.
"Are there any SDA's left on this forum?"
Yes, I'm here! Frankly, many probably would find it as frustrating as you and some others to try and reason from Scripture. So, why waste the time!!
I believe Andrews is the oldest SDA educational institution, not AUC.
One of the cutest reactions you can get from a puppy is to point at a mistake on the floor and say, "Max, what is this?" No matter how close you hold Him to his error, he will not look at it. I wonder why it isn't cute when people react the same way to evidence.
Harry
If you, too, believe that the three-year restudy of the issue of women's ordination by yet another General Conference study committee is unnecessary and redundant and support ordination equality now regardless of gender, go to www.one-in-christ.com and sign a grassroots petition to move the issue from the local pew, not from the GC-down.
Much research material supporting this issue from the Bible and other research is available here, too.
Goal, 10,000 signatures by the end of March.
go to http://www.one-in-christ.com and tell your friends to sign, too.
Horatio,
You are correct. "Virgin birth" is not only unscientific, in humans it is absurd. No-one today would write such a story, because we know that DNA is inherited from both parents (which would make Jesus a half-man, half-God hybrid). Neither the author of the oldest canonical gospel ("according to Mark") nor Paul seem to have even heard about it. Otherwise how could they missed such an important fact? Mark omits the childhood entirely, as to him Jesus was adopted by God only at baptism (Mark 1:11). To Paul Jesus was simply "born of a woman" - i.e. just like you and me. The virgin birth story appeared relatively late in the Christian 1st century tradition and was added as an embelishment. It's value is theological, not factual.
"The virgin birth story appeared relatively late in the Christian 1st century tradition and was added as an embelishment. It's value is theological, not factual." -- Jag
Well said, Jag
For anybody who wants a resource on this subject that is both readable and highly informative, I'd recommend Bishop Spong's "Born of a Woman".
>Jag......Horatio was not questioning the virgin birth...he was sarcastically suggesting that many others do.......hence, he will probably not appreciate being said to "be correct".
however, others HAVE questioned the virgin birth.....because there were so many of them alleged BEFORE Jesus....leading to the question if Jesus followers might not have adopted that method of glorifying their leader. not unlike how Moses followers may have "borrowed" the Sargon myth of a reed basket trip down the GreatRiver
to aggrandize their great leader.
I wonder what will be Horatio's reaction to reading about how many virgin births "occurred" prior to Jesus... here....
http://pocm.info/pagan_ideas_virgin_birth.html
(my...how this thread demonstrates how easily a religious cnversation can drift because of such strong convictions)
you don't stop having fun because you get old..... you get old because you stop having fun.
B.Jones: You are right that Andrews is the oldest SDA institution of higher learning.... but what AUC has to brag about is that it was always located *on the same site* during its long history. Andrews started out first as Battle Creek College, I think, then moved to Berrien Springs many years later.
Regardless, AUC is no more. It's a shame. But they actually lasted a long time after the point at which they were bankrupt. Our General Conference bailed them out for years.
AUC has filed paperwork with the State of Mass to re-open next fall......
as the small, New England School it once was...and hopefully grow back from there.
you don't stop having fun because you get old..... you get old because you stop having fun.
AUC, if it does open in the Fall needs to start from scratch. I know of students who made it a career there and got married and started families. It was just away of life. Honestly, it was one of the reasons why my parents were against SDA institutions. There is a tendency of inbreeding on campus as well as the method of teaching. They tend to invoke " We are great" in everything they teach; this as well as passing along Xenophobia. The latter is most certainly true I've witnessed it.