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Thousands of Former Adventists Await the Second Coming on Oct 13
“This looks like a Harry Potter movie but we are in the end times. We are very close to the fulfillment of the Scripture.” These were the words of Saúl Salas talking from Costa Rica through Skype some weeks ago.
Salas was an Adventist for 20 years. Pastor Hugo Gambetta baptized him. Now he belongs to a movement called “The Eternal Truth,” which, expects the Second Coming of Christ to happen on Thursday, October 13.
According to Salas, this movement was founded in Loma Linda in 2008 by Cristian Silva and soon received the strong support from the Argentinean-based Geier family. Spread all over the American continent and present in many countries of Western Europe and even in Japan, they claimed to have baptized tens of thousands mainly coming out of the Seventh-day Adventist Church as well some evangelical churches and even some from the Islamic faith. They say, however, that many of them have left the movement already and they believe they should have exactly 7,000 at the time of the Second Coming. Three Adventist pastors, one from Mexico, one from Puerto Rico and one from Spain, have left the church to join them.
After Spectrum's Café Hispano’s conversation with members of this movement and after reviewing some material posted on the Internet, it is easy to believe that they are, at least, a couple of thousand active people.
According to their interpretation of Revelation 17, they all will be gathered sometime soon in the Vatican and be killed because of their opposition to Catholicism. They believe they will be resurrected before the Second Coming, though.
But their most outstanding belief is that the Holy Spirit is not the third person of the “Roman Trinity” but “Christ Himself omnipresent.” The movement has proclaimed this idea with all sorts of advertising in the American continent—even placing ads on national TV and radios—saying “Nor 3, nor 1, but 2. Do not be fooled.”
Apparently, discovering this truth was an eye-opener moment for Ricardo Martínez, an Adventist pastor until last May: “my life experienced a 180º turn. My Christian experience is now more intimate with Jesus through His Holy Spirit, through the Bible.”
In the conversation that Spectrum/Café Hispano held with Salas and some of his fellows, they affirmed that they only use the Bible to back their beliefs. In turn, they backed this same statement with a quote from Ellen White’s book The Great Controversy.
Money does not seem to be a problem for them. Nobody is required to tithe even though some groups have done so in order to help other groups (sometimes even from other countries) to spread the word. Salas and his fellows say it is an horizontal, decentralized movement where everybody uses his own money to promote it. Thus, Salas uses his extra money to burn DVDs and give them away for free while a Chilean married man with two kids who participated in the Skype interview said that he had sold his house and left his job in order to devote himself to preaching the gospel.
Sources from Chile’s Adventist University (UNACH) said that this movement has gained momentum in the country. In this video, the reader can see how “The Eternal Truth’s” message has been proclaimed across the American continent.
In Spain, during last summer’s Pope visit, a group of 20 delivered almost 20,000 DVDs to Catholics, according to Martínez.
New technologies have truly helped to spread the movement and to maintain it. Salas says he is online 24/7, always ready to study the Bible with his fellow believers or to answer our questions. They use Skype or a similar program called Paltak, to connect believers and even hold worship services, for which they have their own hymnal.
Finally, they believe that movement’s founder Cristian Silva was raised by God to prepare the remnant for the Second Coming. Salas describes Silva as a very educated person trained in Loma Linda. Just before we published an extended version of this story in Café Hispano on September the 29th, Salas sent an email saying that in fact Silva had no actual training. “That was my mistake,” Salas wrote. Apparently, this did not make any difference to Salas regarding Silva’s credibility and trustworthiness.
Spectrum/Café Hispano tried to reach Silva over the phone several times without success and left some voice messages. Silva never returned the calls.
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This is our church's greatest pitfall as I have been saying before. We always tend to fall into the right-side ditch. In other words--not all outcomes are similarly likely; and the crusade against evolution (which I don't believe in to put it simply) is misplaced.
It will never catch on in our church.
On the other hand, conspiracy theories are likely to do much damage to our interpretation of Revelation--and that mindset is catching on in the church.
Now, I am not blaming the church for this. I am just saying that we have special/peculiar vulnerabilities we need to be vigilant about.
That's, like, in an hour! WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY TELL ME!? I need to haul bottom to my local Vegan Village Vegetable Vendor and snatch up more Banana Meat™ brand veggie burgers for tomorrow's “Christ Is Coming TODAY!” barbecue!! It's not the End of Days, it's the End of Day! I don't even have a time, times, and half a time. Do I even have any briquettes left? And-pants!-I need to pick up more paper plates and plasticware. I learned a valuable lesson last May 21 when I had to do all those dishes on May 22, let me tell you.
its not going to happen in October 13, the day they are saying its going to happen is Oct 15 on saturday. there are some members of my churching that are in that group... PRAYING FOR THEM!!!
I really struggle with this situation because so often the temptation is to mock people who fall into this trap while conveniently forgetting that the Adventist church has never officially accepted that we were wrong about 1843-1844 (all three times we got it wrong in that time frame). It's still church policy that Miller was right (but what he was right about was wrong... <--- double speak)! The number of my friends that mocked the followers of Camping earlier this year, and probably will again in the coming months, conveniently forget this... until we officially accept that Miller was wrong we have no moral ground to stand on in this issue (although most of us here, I suspect, are at peace with Miller being wrong)!
We just need to be on stand-by for yet another Great Disappointment!
"No man knows the hour..."
I am more concerned about the preaching within the Adventist church which apparently creates a climate that produces room, interest and credibility for people like Koresh or Salas etc. What is going wrong? Actually I do have some hunches, but sometimes only can lament about what is going on within my church.
Yes, Andreas - this is what disturbs me as well... what is there about "our message" that seems to create the atmosphere where sensational and fringe movements flourish.
How do people become "gullible" and "fanatical"?
Donna Haerich said:
"Yes, Andreas - this is what disturbs me as well... what is there about "our message" that seems to create the atmosphere where sensational and fringe movements flourish.
------------------------------------------------------
Lack of service.
Mark Finley said that the three pillars were prayer, witnessing and Bible Study and that an imbalance brings fanaticism. Well there are actually four legs to the table, and where we fall down is "service": disinterested outreach.
Andreas - do you think that it is fair to say that the very start of our movement was based around a sort of 'conspiracy' so maybe it is bred into our very being. Some people seem to need to have meaning based not on a relationship but on events (actual, predicted or otherwise) that engender a sense of excitement and purpose. I was brought up virtually sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for Sunday Laws to be enacted to be followed by my fleeing to the hills to avoid persecution.
Andreas and Donna posted...
"I am more concerned about the PREACHING within the Adventist church which apparently creates a climate that produces room, interest and credibility for people like Koresh or Salas etc."
"what is there about "our message" that seems to create the atmosphere where SENSATIONAL and fringe movements flourish. "
"How do people become "gullible" and "fanatical"?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gullibile - NAIVE and easily tricked
Humans inherit gullibility from Even and Adam..due to Satan's con job.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is DECEITFUL above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, DECEIVING your own selves.
Fanatic - person motivated by irrational enthusiasm (Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.)
Paul says..
Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you ALL the counsel of God.
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
So many SDA are addicted to adrenaline highs related to sensational, eschatological paranoia.
I go into sabbath school and hear members mention about Pope, Sunday law, United Nations, Jesuits, spiritualism, USA = beast...and ask them what the gospel is ???......deer in the headlights.
It is the institutional approach in church education...pick and choose, dumbing down, shallow and hollow topical sermons...which even contaminates the SS class teaching methods.
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for LACK OF KNOWLEDGE: because thou hast REJECTED knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no PRIEST (clergy/pastor) to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all DECEIVABLENESS of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received NOT the LOVE of the TRUTH, that they might be saved.
SDA repeating the error of the Jews....FIG (fanatic insubordinate, gainsayers)
So may gripe about Ted Wilson....pathetic!
What does he have to do with the thousands of SDA middle manager/leaders (pastors) creating or perpetuating a environment where the back door exodus of new converts and youth is of such a concern and the members are ill equipped and/or apathetic for outreach?
EG White suggests firing the pastors....Gospel Workers p 197
Conspiracy thinking runs deep in all fundamentalist movements, political or religious. The Islamic world is pulsating with fanciful conspiracy theories involving the US as the 'great satan,' such as the idea that George Bush blew up the Twin Towers in order to justify going to war against Islam. Nazism saw a Jewish conspiracy behind everything that was wrong with the world, and Communists believed the snake that had ruined their paradise was a fifth column of secret capitalists. In the 50s right-wing McCarthy-ites thought that government was one vast communist conspiracy, and the John Birch Society accused Republican President Dwight D. Eisenhower of being a communist agent on Moscow's payroll.
Christian fundamentalists believe that science is a conspiracy against God and morality. Evolution is seen as ideological in nature, a crusade against Christianity. According to them, hundreds of thousands of scientists know that the facts don't justify their evolutionary hypothesis, but such is their hatred of God that they have convinced themselves that Evolution must be right. For a long time they believed that Catholicism was a conspiracy hatched by Satan to subvert Christianity, and that spiritualism was for real, but satanic in nature. In the 70s Adventists viewed the charismatic movement as the conspiracy du jour, the spiritualistic merger between Catholicism and 'apostate Protestantism.' And in the late 70s and 80s many hard-core Evangelicals (including quite a few SDAs) embraced a couple of con men sponsored by the outlandish publisher Jack Chick, who claimed that all Protestant denominations had been infiltrated by Jesuits.
Adventist evangelism sets the stage for these kind of crimes against reason. The premise of classic SDA evangelism is that Christendom is a conspiracy concocted for the purpose of suppressing 'present truth,' and that Satan's chosen vehicle has been the Roman Catholic Church. In this narrative, God finally decided to start over again. In 1844 he sifted Christendom through the sieve of Miller's false doomsday message and the emerging Sabbath doctrine. A few hundred New Englanders passed the test, and God chose these to be Christendom 2.0. This little group of Arians who didn't believe that the Atonement had been accomplished at the death of Jesus, was now the only group of believers on the face of the Earth who had God's official stamp of approval, as a group.
If you're able to believe this story, you can also believe that the 1290 days of Daniel 12 indicates that the world will go under tonight (unless the 1335 days of the same chapter indicates it'll be 45 years in the future.) Once you have a conspiracy mindset, you're vulnerable to crazy thinking. The positive news that I derive from the Spectrum blog, is that most educated SDAs today have rejected this mindset. To them truth is more than an antithesis; it's a construct that must respect the parameters of reality, even when it goes beyond the falsifiable. Faith, whether it be in scientific speculations that there is extraterrestrial life or if it be religious faith in a spiritual dimension, is legitimate as long as it doesn't disrespect observable and falsifiable reality. You can't build truth on demonstrable lies.
Fundamentalists see themselves as part of an insurgency against mainstream culture and its moderation. The fact that the majority laugh at their ideas, is taken as confirmation of the fact that 'narrow is the road, and few are those who find it.'
Aage
We've accepted crisis mode as the epitome of spirituality. "Get ready, get ready, get ready!" And so we need repeated crises to maintain acceptable fervor.
____________________________________________________
"be reverent in behavior, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good" titus 2:3
i don't see how anyone can argue against what Aage just laid out.
No surprise here; this IS the SDA's DNA; some are just in the process of slowly moving away from that and still remain SDA....which is an oxymoron in my mind.
The END—December 1012
Will the world end on 2012? There are thousands of true believers all over the world—China, India, Russia, USA—with over 300 books on Amazon. Many believe that friendly aliens set up the Mayan Civilization and calendar. History, Discovery, and science channels have promoted this inquiry. There is increasing alarm about nature, predictions are varied but are all fear based:
1. Solar storms will destroy all communication satellites.
2. All the planets will be aligned
3. North and South polls of the earth will shift
4. The earth will drift into the dark rift of the Milky Way
5. Every volcano on earth will erupt simultaneously
6. Heating up of the earth’s core
7. The Vatican with governments is behind this conspiracy keeping info from the public
In a lecture by NASA David Morrison, says he has received thousands of e-mails concerning 2012. “Yesterday I was considering killing myself, the baby in my stomach, before December 12.” A mother with two young children, “I am so scared I will surely go mad if I cannot find out what will happen.” An eighth grader said he was going to commit suicide in two weeks unless Morrison could answer his questions. An older person wrote, “I so scared, my only friend is my dog, when shall I put her to sleep so she won’t suffer during the destruction.”
Conservative SDA’s tell me that the most important sign of the end of the world is the coming collapse of the world financial systems, creating unprecedented crisis. Only when world conditions are seriously bad can the Lord return.
I ask them what about the Black Death in Europe from 1347 to 1351, killing about one in three of Europe's and nearly one in 12 of the world's population at the time. Surely, the Lord should have come then.
Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Black+Death+mapping+reforms+disease+s...
Morrison’s lecture is found on ITunes, FORA.tv on 10/7/11
Only a few more hours to go and OCTOBER 13th will have passed around the whole World...
What will be next date after this "probably a mistake"?....
Aside from all the intricate biblical exegesis, history of interpretation and actual SDA history, there are many flesh and blood people, families and precious hearts caught up in this and similar movements. I feel for them and want to urge Spectrum readers to respond with compassion.
In the 1840's, renowned ministers such as Calvin Stowe pleaded with William Miller to consider the emotional fallout of his failed prediction of the end of the world by fire "about 1843". Yet, if I read the correspondence correctly, the believers were so confident of their rightness that they could not empathize with those who cautioned against, let alone opposed, their views. The many Disappointed, including Ellen White, were emotionally traumatized for many years after, who suffered PTSD and chronic depression for about seven years after 1844, when the "shut door"of their emotions finally opened.
Some will ridicule those former SDAs and others who fall for this, or the many 2012 predictions supposedly based n the Mayan Calendar. But this is not the right attitude. Instead, we can love the people who follow such ideas, provide shelter and counseling, and offer long-term comfort in loving families and churches where God's love has no time limits and no tests of orthodoxy. Those who mock show they have not an ounce of true Christianity in them. We have all erred in one way or another, and errors in biblical interpretation are no more deserving of shame and dishonor than any other fault.
I pray for the misleaders, the corrupters, the innocent children, the idealists, the true believers and the observers. This is a human drama than calls for our compassion and open arms, not our judgment and damning superiority. So instead of looking for the blame in all this...
... let a little love shine in our hearts!
Graeme
NOW you tell us! I thought I had at least another week, by Harold Camping's reckoning. (Sheesh!)
Apparently, the Seventh-day Adventist background of Pastor Salas has well-prepared him in how to cry "wolf" yet again.
There are young and old people, raised in this environment, constantly looking for certain "end things" whether it was Jerusalem declared a state in the mid 40s, Russia as the "King of the North," and today those Sadventists who only remember, so vividly the "small back cloud in the east" or this or that earthquake or calamity and begin forwarding emails declaring that for certain, "This is what has been preached, we must get ready!" (BTW, what must one do to "get ready"?)
It's in Adventism's DNA: it began with a warning message of "the end is coming" and like Chicken Little it is a continual message: check out any of the SDA evangelists. Those that don't remind everyone of the "Soon" coming of Jesus are derelict of their SDA message.
Aage listed all that have plagued Christendom down the centuries. Fear does create instant converts. But what happens to those, fully expecting the "end" today when they wake up in their own beds next morning and have not been raptured?
Elaine
It's not just Adventist, it's human nature. For those whom Goodenough is not good enough, there will always be the search for meaning beyond.
46 failed end-of-the-world predictions that were to occur between 30 & 1920 CE, but didn't. http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm
From the link:
1843-MAR-21: William Miller, founder of the Millerite movement, predicted that Jesus would come on this date. A very large number of Christians accepted his prophecy.
1844-OCT-22: When Jesus did not return, Miller predicted this new date. In an event which is now called "The Great Disappointment," many Christians sold their property and possessions, quit their jobs and prepared themselves for the second coming. Nothing happened; the day came and went without incident.
1850: Ellen White, founder of the Seven Day Adventists movement, made many predictions of the timing of the end of the world. All failed. On 1850-JUN-27 she prophesied that only a few months remained before the end. She wrote: "My accompanying angel said, 'Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.' ...now time is almost finished...and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months." 10
1856 or later: At Ellen White's last prediction, she said that she was shown in a vision the fate of believers who attended the 1856 SDA conference. She wrote "I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." 11 That is, some of the attendees would die of normal diseases; some would die from plagues at the last days, others would still be alive when Jesus came. "By the early 1900s all those who attended the conference had passed away, leaving the Church with the dilemma of trying to figure out how to explain away such a prominent prophetic failure." 12
Here is a list that is more up to date and extends into some of the more major predictions for the future:
http://www.bible.ca/pre-date-setters.htm
But what did Jesus mean when He said:
""I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." ?
I think there's a few things playing into each other which make the "fertile soil" of Adventism ripe for harvesting by people like Koresh and Salas.
1. Because Adventism, at a denominational level, believes that they are THE REMNANT they, out of necessity, need to find ways in which they are oppressed... and, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, it becomes very appealing (and in some minds necessary) to create global conspiracies against the church; which in turn feeds point 2 & 3,
2. Adventism attracts, and in many ways encourages, some very odd people. Fringe dwellers whose beliefs often blur the lines between fantasy and reality...
3. Adventists are rarely, if ever, taught to critically analyze the things that they are thinking of doing (although depending on where in the world you're educated there is some varience). Part of this is probably born out of a fear that if many were to stop and think about some of the things we believe that church membership would fall, another part is probably because this kind of thinking wasn't encouraged when those leading the youth were younger (if it was good enough for Paul & Silas then it's good enough for me characterises this kind of thinking, where blind acceptance is considered righteous and questioning places your dedication into question).
I don't really know how to achieve it, but if we could: 1. stop the victim mentality, 2. stop encouraging the nutters, 3. start ACTUALLY following Mrs White's teaching that we, "...aren't to be mere reflectors of other men's words" and teach our children to think about what they're being told (both on the street AND from the pulpit in our own congregations)... then maybe we could go a way to stopping such tragedies, or at least protecting our own families against them so we can help those who still fall prey!
Something is awry. If they believe that "they all will be gathered sometime soon in the Vatican and be killed because of their opposition to Catholicism," and "they believe they will be resurrected before the Second Coming," where does this fit into the timeline of Jesus returning today (Oct 13) or Saturday (Oct 15), which a commentator stated is their actual belief? Bizarre.
Also in Trinidad and Tobago -
But what did Jesus mean when He said: ""I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." ?
_______________________________________________________________
You know, that same question was asked in The Nostradamus Kid, a movie my mother describes as having been written by a disgruntled ex-Adventist from sunny Australia, during a JMV meeting. The response is nothing short of disturbing, and gives a lot of insight into some of the more cultic thinking that sometimes goes on in Adventism (summary: the guest preacher from America suggests that there could be a 2,000 year old man living in a cave somewhere and because the main character can't prove otherwise he must accept Jesus' word that the generation of Christ has not passed... later, because of this scene, the girl he's trying to woo says, "I don't think you're a real Adventist, you harbour doubts!".
He's talking about the generation that sees those last things. He starts with the apostles & goes all the way thru til the end times. "This generation that is alive at the end time" will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. That's how you could paraphrase it.
Thank you.
Jeff
It is no doubt comforting to think so, but the text indicates that Jesus believed that the Apocalypse was imminent. That was the focal point of his preaching--the Kingdom of God is at hand.
Aage
Jeff''s statement a a tautology and has no intrinsic meaning. I am sure he is aware of that and meant it as a joke. At least I hope so.
"But what did Jesus mean when He said: ""I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." ?"
Jesus is explaining two events that parallel. The generation that did not pass, was the one that saw Jerusalem destroyed. Somethings He said applied to one event and some to the other. And some applied to both.
Because EGW said that people then, whom she was speaking to, would not see death till Jesus comes. It's amazing the explanations that can be made when a prediction doesn't come to pass. The "Jeus is coming" belief that initiated Adventism didn't come true, either. How many times will people still believe such predictions?
Elaine
You can count on one thing: during this time, Salas is raking in the money. He'll be set until Jesus really gets here.
Either that, or he's bedding his female followers under some kind of twisted theology.
It's alway one or the other with these kinds or people, and sometimes both.
I think that is a leap, Geo
Aage, I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding about what the Kingdom of God really is...
The Kingdom of God is within You.
It's tomorrow. Nothing happened. Surprise. Carry on argueing SDA's. I love it. Snore............... ;)
There are often English words in scripture that take on different meanings to the original Greek/Hebrew etc. There is evidence that 'genea' or 'this generation' could just as easily have meant 'this age' or 'this people' i.e. the Jews. The last phrase could also mean these things would begin to happen/be in progress. Just a thought.
Hello! Today is October 14th, 2011! WOW, we are all still here????
What is the next date we should now be afraid of?
More crackpot numero-pseudo-nutty theology in the good ole Adventist tradition. Embedded in the DNA of SADism, but denied. Well-meaning folk who deserve our sympathy and understanding, as Graeme so beautifully calls for. But nevertheless sincerity does not excuse baloney, now or in 1843/4, or throughout our sanitized and justified history. We disavow these movements but they are a mirror into our ecclesiastical psyche. The spirit of this most recent movement is what I see and hear at campmeetings, churches and on videos now and throughout my mAdventist experience. We may quibble over details, but the essence is the same.
"This generation" in Matthew 24:34 cannot refer to the generation living at the time of Christ, since "all these things" --the abomination of desolation (v. 15), the persecutions and judgments (verses 17-22), the false prophets (verses 23-26), the signs in the heavens (verses 27-29), Christ's return (v. 30), and the gathering of the elect (verse 31)--did not "take place" in their lifetime.
It seems best to interpret Christ's words as referring to the generation alive at the time when those final, hard, labor pains begin. This view would fit with the lesson of the fig tree, which emphasizes the short span of time in which these things will occur. When the fig branch "puts forth leaves," only a short time remains until summer. For believers, Paul's assurance that "God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep" (1 Thess. 4:14 ESV) is the "blessed hope" of the elect of all ages. Sadly, this is not a passage read at SDA funerals.
George and Allie....whadyamean nothing happened?
judgement day came for all these people:
http://www.google.com/search?q=deaths+on+oct+14+2011&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&a...
you don't stop having fun because you get old..... you get old because you stop having fun.
Ah yes but it did. The Jewish nation was destroyed in the lifetime of the listeners. The 'abombination that maketh desolate" were the ensigna of the Roman legions surrounding Jerusalem and the early Christians of the day recognised it as such and fled the doomed city when the legions suddenly withdrew momentarily. It is said few if any Jewish Christians died in the sack of 70AD.
These were indeed the 144000 "firstfruits" mentioned in Revelation. All the things fortold by Jesus actually came to pass in the lifetime of his hearers. The problem lies in how we try to make it apply to our times not theirs. There were false prophets that promised deliverence to the Jews of the day just as there are time setters today.
What is really sad is that without EGW we would not have people like this guy or Koresh being taken serious. The belief and promotion of latter day prophets spawns a lot of wannabes who are just as nutty as mohammed ,joseph smith egw and others. These poor folks need our love and pity but also our rejection of the cults that give birth to it.
From Dennis Fischer
"For believers, Paul's assurance that "God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep" (1 Thess. 4:14 ESV) is the "blessed hope" of the elect of all ages. Sadly, this is not a passage read at SDA funerals."
Ummm...no. The blessed hope is the resurrection to eternal life. Without it, there would be no 'hope' (Those that have fallen asleep in Christ have perished - 1 Corinthians 15:18). Those that have fallen asleep in Christ are 'raised in the same manner as Christ'. This is the appropriate translation of 'will God bring with Him', as it explains the reasoning for believing 'if Jesus DIED and ROSE again, EVEN SO (or in the same manner of), will God bring with Him. The assumption of 'body soul reunification' has to be played by the traditionalist despite no biblical evidence for such, and clear teaching that only at the resurrection, and not as a disembodied soul (another concept that can't be proven from scripture) is eternal life realized.
Back to the topic at hand, it is unfortunate that the SDA church seems to attract all the nut jobs. What do we expect when we have a remnant, persecuted mindset with an over emphasis on end time events? We have enough 'quackventists' in our midst. It's time we start producing more Christians.
If Jesus was a representation of what our future hope will be, he was certianly not the same form as his disciples did not recognize him, he walked through locked doors, the women at the tomb did not recognize him.
Whether he was a spirit or not we cannot tell, but according to the NT writers he was NO in his physical body afterwarde just the same as before the resurrection. We cannot know exactly how we will be "transformed" at the resurrection.
Elaine
Jesus said He was flesh and blood not spirit so He was the same after as before.The disciples did not recognise Him because neither they or the women at the tomb actually believed He would live again.There are possible explanations about the locked door.
On the other hand Paul makes it clear that the resurrected body is different from the body interred just as the corn stalk that emerges from the ground is different from the seed kernel that was planted.
Not alltogether clear but presumably the resurrected body will not mate nor defecate as far as one can tell from what references we have in Scripture.
Much of our confusion arises from texts which were orginally conditional promises to the jewish nation are somehow seen as applying tho the post ressurection era.
Abe, are you able to substantiate from the Bible that the resurrected body of Jesus was identical as before? Why did Paul "make it clear the the resurrected body is different?
Where do you get the suppostion that the resurreted body "will not mate nor defececate"? You may be right, but only if the resurrected body IS DIFFERENT. Which is it?
Elaine
Oh my.... No mating??? Is that good???
Why was it that Lilith left Adam and made the rib/Eve thing necessary?
OK.
Today is 17 of Tishri. Does anybody know what happened to them?...
For some reason my heart aches for them...
Brother, you really don't know history, or maybe you don't want to know.
Way out....
Heber
Darrell,
For believers death means being "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8). That is why our Lord said at His death, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" (Lk. 23:46). That is why He promised the penitent thief, "Today you will be with Me in paradise" (Lk. 23:43). That is why Paul described departing the body to be with Christ as "better by far" than remaining in the body (Phil. 1:23). And that is why Scripture speaks of deceased human beings as souls "under the altar" (Rev. 6:9) and as "spirits of righteous men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23).
Importantly, Jesus was not in a state of nonexistence from the time of His physical death on the Cross to His glorious resurrection from the tomb. If Jesus the God-man ceased to exist between His death and resurrection, then the Trinity only consisted of two persons during that period of time. The Trinity would have been reduced to a Binity, or the resurrection of Jesus meant the re-creation of the second person of the Trinity. In that case, the second person of the Trinity would be a created being. Such conclusions are ruinous for the Christian faith because they compromise the doctrine of the Trinity. The truthfulness of traditionalism is confirmed by the fact that it coheres with other biblical teachings.
Dennis, your insistence on making your passages speak of a disembodied soul surviving death blatantly ignores the context and symbolism of the passages. If you look closely at the last part of 2 Corinthians 4, vs 1-7 of 2 Corinthians 5 and cross reference it with 1 Corinthians 15, Paul is clearly talking about receiving a resurrection body, not a disembodied soul.
The souls under the altar crying for vengeance is a direct link to the symbolism of Abel's blood 'crying out to God' for the Hebrews believed that the 'nephesh', the life, was in the blood. It is also a direct link to the blood being poured out on the altar of sacrifice in the sanctuary service. It is clearly personification and symbolism of martyrdom. To make this mean literal souls under the altar is to completely miss the significance and direct contextual meaning of the passage.
The passage of Christ on the cross shows that there is no evidence that Christ and the thief died on the same day, the thief new very well when he would receive eternal life. The lack of punctuation in the Greek also explains the translation error. This is a valid criticism as the bible doesn't support such a concept anywhere in the bible.
The Philippians passage, in my opinion, is pointing out a third option: that is to be translated and 'be with Christ' which is far better. Far better than what? Dying AND staying. Paul makes it clear that EITHER option is good. He is torn between the two. It makes no sense to say those things but then say that 'dying' is far better. He just contradicted himself. He would also contradict himself in 2 Timothy 2:6-8 where he clearly states that his reward is given on the day of the Lord, and not at his physical death. He would also contradict himself in 1 Corinthians 15 where throughout he makes it plain that only at the resurrection is eternal life realized and received. Without the resurrection at the end, we would die in our graves. It is plain as day, Dennis. It is only Greek dualism that causes you to interpret passages the way they are not meant to be interpreted.
Where was Christ from his death on Friday evening until early Sunday morning? Did He die? If so, how could he be God as God cannot die. Please explain this logic.
Elaine
The Bible speaks of three different kinds of death; namely, physical, spiritual (from the Fall & before regeneration) and eternal (the death that never dies). We cannot understand regeneration or being "born again" if we do not believe in the immaterial entity of human beings. Indeed, we have a real heaven to gain and a real hell to shun. JWs and SDAs (both stemming from Millerism) are the religious groups who primarily teach the extinction/re-creation view today. We cannot give physical nor spiritual birth to ourselves--both are done for us. Most of what we know about a place called "hell" was taught by Jesus Himself. Truly, we can fully trust the words of Jesus in Matthew 25:46 and in His teaching parable about the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.
Interestingly and sadly, the Adventist view of creation is wholeheartedly supported by atheists and secular evolutionists. All three groups agree that what you can actually see with your own eyes is what you have and nothing more. In what sense is a human being who dies and ceases to exist the same person as the one who is re-created by God at the resurrection? Advocates of the unbiblical extinction/re-creation view do not claim to be able to prove continuity of personhood between the person who dies and the one who is raised. The resurrection is not a cloning process. Not even God can resurrect someone who does not exist. Dying just like an animal and merely being in the remembrance of God as a fallen sparrow is not good news. Jesus aptly used the metaphor of "sleep" for illustrating death. In real sleep, we are not completely gone or unconscious. We can move, hear, awaken, dream, even sleep walk, etc. Obviously, the mind is not dead while we are asleep. Truly, Jesus could not have given a better or more understandable metaphor for death than "sleep."
The idea of soul sleep was first advanced by Arnobius in the fourth century, and it was formally renounced as heresy in the Christian community at the Second Council of Constantinople. Here is my challenge to serious Bible students: Simply consult a good concordance for scores of passages that contain the words "spirit" and "soul" and then replace those words with "breath" instead to see if it makes any sense to you. Indeed, by inserting the word "breath" to those passages, as Adventist apologists insist is the meaning of "spirit," makes most of those passages blasphemous, nonsensical, and sacrilegious.
Re: the comment "Back to the topic at hand, it is unfortunate that the SDA church seems to attract all the nut jobs. What do we expect when we have a remnant, persecuted mindset with an over emphasis on end time events?"
My grandpa was a rabid catholic who became a rabid adventist because back in the 1915's seems like everybody was looking for the True Church - there could only be one. Then grandpa read a bunch of red books, private letters which were published as Testimonies to the Church, and Eureka! he didn't have to think any more, he had found The Truth. The thing is, we like being special. We like the idea we will be persecuted for our peculiarity, just as the mormons and JD's do too. Only last sabbath when the question was raised in SS 'what will be the deciding issue of true believers - the sabbath of course' was the resounding and near-unanimous answer (okay, I squeaked out 'maybe not'). No mention of the millions of jews and muslims who will also be rounded up.
The point truly is, we don't just attract nut-jobs, we carefully nurture and raise nut-jobs.
Carolyn,
You said, "The point truly is, we don't just attract nut-jobs, we carefully nurture and raise nut-jobs." And I tend to agree - but there are also voices out there than try and counter-act the flow. A good friend of my mine just recounted the following incident to me:
"A couple yrs back when a friend and I led out a youth group in Tahoe - we were amazed at the growth and courage of after just 4 days of discussing free thought and serving a God who does not promote coersion or manipulation. Friday night - we had a local pastor bring his youth in to join us and they shared the start of our meeting sharing how they were successful at being"sneaky" about giving out "party invites" at a local mall and laughed at how the invites showed up shocked ot find themselves at a church gathering.
The youth in our group sat in silence then the hands began shooting up in protest. It was an amazing Friday night to say the least. We were able to discuss our "mission" is NOT to convince or convert others of OUR experience but to share love and compassion thereby allowing the Holy Spirit do woo.'
Of course, my friend is a woman, and she will never be allowed to "move up the ranks" in our church.
Eliane
If you reread my post you will see I said "presumably" .It is not at all clear just how the resurrected body will be. We do after all "see through the glass darkly"
But according to Scripture Jesus did assure his disciples that he was flesh and blood not spirit. Now I know that the JWs claim Jesus manifested a flesh and blood body so as to mislead His followers into believing in the resurrection of the flesh but was actually raised a "spiritual"being but that also raises a lot of questions.
Dennis
You have touched on a problem in SDA theology and to a lesser extent the problems raised by other beliefs.
The assumption is that Jesus death paid the penality for fallen man in that He suffered the same punishment due the sinner. But Jesus is not now suffering eternal suffering in an everlasting HELL. Far from it He is sitting on a throne in heaven beside His Father.It must follow then that either Jesus did not suffer the fate of the damned as popularly understood or indeed the fate of the damned is different.
On the other hand the concept of annihilation of the wicked ( which by the way certain texts in Scripture appear to support) is incompatable with the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus could not completely cease to exist if He was God. In the early Arian stance of the SDA denomination this concept of annihlation of the wicked presented no prolem but with the present Trinatarian beliefs it makes no sense whatever.
I do not know the answers but it seems that maybe we are unable to understand .In some of Jesus statements or rather statments alledgedly made by Jesus ( the NT was composed many years later) it appears he saw man as three dimensional, body soul and spirit.
The best way I can explain it is to use the computer as the model. We have the actual physical components of the computer and the electric power to run it but we also need a "programme" to make it all function. Any one or even two of these being present will accomplish nothing.
And it could be that this operating programme eg the "soul" gets used over and over again in many computers eg "bodies". If in the orginal creation there were "souls" for all manner of life and if they get used over and over again it could explain why some humans are vicious like lions sly like foxes or dumb like jackasses while certain animals are almost human in intelligence and personality.
No way of knowing for sure what the answer is but a little logical thinking will tell you what it ain't.
Carolyn,
The Sabbath is about much more than a day and as such I am more convinced than anything else that the Sabbath will be the deciding issue at the end time.
We're still stuck at the "day" point unfortunately.
Among other things, the Sabbath is about "...free thought and serving a God who does not promote coersion or manipulation..." as Donna's friend discussed with the youth group.
Since we become what we worship, you can bet that will be one of the "deciding issues" at the end of time.
Donna, I am looking for a way to present that kind of material to youth (and to church members not familiar with the Character of God message). Do you have any link to resources etc. for such discussions? (Kids/people here in the Caribbean arise from a much more authoritarian ethos than Californian ones--so I am looking to start from first principles.)
"Dennis, you have touched on a problem in SDA theology and to a lesser extent the problems raised by other beliefs." (Abe T.)
It seems that philosophical assumptions and not exegesis determines where people land on the Bible's view of the afterlife. It is well known that the Jews were of several minds about the afterlife, and still have not arrived at a consensus. Adventists are closer to the Old Testament data on life after death than the typical Evangelical position, but the SDA official belief is too simplistic. It does not seriously deal with the Jewish concept of Sheol as a shadow world from which the dead can be conjured up, as in the case of the 'witch' of Endor, who made the deceased prophet Samuel appear. Nor do Adventists deal seriously with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, which referenced a prominent Jewish point of view on the afterlife.
But Evangelicals are hardly any better. They turn God into the overseer of a vast concentration camp called Hell, where gratuitous torture is inflicted on billions of people whose disembodied souls have been provided with nerves for the specific purpose of feeling pain. And this cesspool of unimaginable suffering is supposed to be the Disney World of Eternity where the saved will come to glory in the fact that they avoided this roiling cauldron of pure agony in which their body-less kids and their grandparents are writhing in pain. Even some Evangelicals recoil from this picture of God, which turns Hitler and Stalin into mere Mini-Me's, and, like C.S. Lewis, they assign the flames to symbols and metaphors, and focus on Hell as separation from God, in which we're back to something like the Hebrew shadow-world of Sheol, which in it's Christian incarnation is seen as a kind of celestial emergency room in which people will spend Eternity waiting for a doctor who never comes. Not much of an improvement on the hell-fire version, if you ask me. It's torture either way, and never-ending at that, and only tenuously based on Biblical data.
Aage
mark your calendars to remember that the world is scheduled to end, again...
this time on Friday, Oct 21
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/14/oct-21-2011-end-of-world_n_1007...
I think I'll give up my vegan diet this week and chow down on pork, gallons of Ben and Jerry's, pepperoni pizza loaded with fattening cheese, topped with potato chips, and all washed down with
God's gift of the grape, I mean, what's the use in dieting if on Friday I'm either gonna get burned to death, or get a new body?
well, to be prepared on thursday night, I might find a mass or an AA meeting to attend and get forgiven just in case friday turns out to be the end like FF. Coppola, J. Morrison and Father Sheen depict here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4WJlLNIsyY&feature=related
you don't stop having fun because you get old..... you get old because you stop having fun.
Dear Friend in Trinidad and Tobago - please contact me privately and I'll be glad to link you with folks who can give you more information.
dhaerich@fbs.net
I'm still here -are you?!
Deep sympathy to those who get caught up in this. It's just the beginning of the apocalyptic madness far beyond the sectarian fringes of adventism. 2012 is just around the corner! It's been fascinating watching it all unfold over the last five years or so as its risen in public consciousness - well before the movie. So many parallels to 1843/4 regarding styles of thinking and reacting. Already there are those who are reinterpreting it to be more subtle and spiritual rather than the end of the world as we know it. Perhaps our Adventist history will give us sympathy and healthy sceptism - but I see there are still plenty of Adventists caught up in end-of-the-world-ism but with our flavor.
It didn't happen, happen, happen, happen, happen
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/guest-voices/post/october-21-2011-ha...
For normal people:
Have a great weekend.
For Conservative Crackers:
Have a happy sabbath.
For LGT Crackers:
Have a perfect weekend and a perfect sabbath.
It is my understanding that William Miller had the date of October 22, 1844, correct, but misunderstood the event: "The cleansing of the sanctuary." He mistakenly thought this earth was the sanctuary to be cleansed when, in truth, it was the beginning of the judgement which will ultimately cleanse the sanctuary in heaven. These kinds of disappointments weed out the honest in heart from those who join because of the fear factor. There were many who glad Jesus didn't come and went back to their old way of life while the earnest in heart continued to study and pray. God helped them to understand the true meaning of "unto 2,300 days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Daniel 8:14
If we are diligent searchers for truth, we won't be thrown by predictions such as Camping because the 7 trumpets (tribulations) of Revelation have not "sounded" yet. The earthquake to happen when the 144,000 have been sealed in their foreheads signaling the beginning of the last 1260 days has not happened yet. I truly expect this to happen very soon. Even then, we won't be able to set an exact date for Jesus to come because we are told the time will be "cut short." But we can know that it will happen within a given time when these end-time events start taking place.
Go to www.wake-up.org for free book Warning, Revelation Is About To Be Fulfilled. This is the best explanation of Revelation and end-time events I have ever come across.
Alice, Camping is simply doing what early adventists did. Come up with idea that they were certain about. When it didn't work out they reinterpreted what they believed it meant and rationalized their experience to make sense of it rather than admit they made a big mistake. They kept doing it many times, and still do. The free book you offer is doing the same thing. Nothing much changes but the details - the thinking patterns and approach are much the same. You're rationalizing of the 1844 understanding is the same. It doesn't make it right - but it is very human!
Alice
Nobody wants to be wrong. Particularly when they gave up so much in the assurance of a farmer's calculations of Biblical prophecy. It took another farmer to have a vision in a corn field to compound that error.
Rather than reading Hebrews 9 and 10 as they were written by a Scribe who recorded Paul's sermon (a popular view of the history of the manuscript) They adapted it to cover their error--only to compound it.
First a question: What place can be more Holy than the place where God is? Heaven is Holy only because God is there. The Sermon given to a Hebrew community in the days of Paul was given to provide assurance that the Jesus they knew--now was ministering in the true Sanctuary. Taking up the incident of the torn veil---we now can enter with boldness in conversational prayer to Our Maker, Our Lord, and coming King of Kings.
What we can be sure of: is Jesus is not dusting off old DVD's to see who has been naughty and who has been nice. Nor is He waiting for a perfect final generation.
The day of His coming will be like the days of Noah. Certainly Noah and his clan were far from perfect.
The Great Disapointment was so! The retread of those assumptions aren't necessarily so. Tom Z
It must be admitted that the "revised" interpretation of 1844 is immune to investigtion: it is impossible to prove or disprove any event in heaven. How Could such a doctrine be verified? Does anyone even know the location of heaven? Is it a spiritual idea, a belief impossible to be validated. On such flimsy ideas have many religious ideas begun.
Another reason many of us have parted ways with Adventism.
Elaine
By some of the comments on this thread I gather there are strong sentiments among many around the necessity of erasing the SDA Church (a rather recurring theme)....sigh....so many fringe groups, David Koreshes, grandiose, unfulfilled prophecies and that E.G. White with her "prophet complex" who never got anything right......how about staging an Occupy SDA Churches (OSDAC) and bring this irritating group down for good? that should bring an end to all this 10 commandment keeping archaic theology....then the energies could be redirected to more productive endeavors like converting the world to Jesus and micro-managing God into silence around all this alarmist "Jesus is Coming soon" nonsense. Just a suggestion.
I am still disappointed, since yesterday. I was sure it would happen on 11/11/11 at 11:11am. Then I realized my interpretation was wrong, it must be @ 11:11 PM!
May be the secret is in another sequence of numbers, like 9 - 9 - 9, hhhmmmm....
If any institution or church is no longer relevant and helpful, people vote with their feet. The attrition rate in Adventism is not some of which one should be proud, so there is no need to invite anyone to leave, many have already chosen to leave without invitation.
Elaine