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Leo Schreven: Taking Sabbath to the Super Bowl [UPDATED]
A conversation with businessman, pastor and evangelist Leo Schreven about an ad being planned for Super Bowl XLVI in 2012.
Jared Wright: For the last several months, Facebook users have been seeing targeted ads inviting them to support a Super Bowl commercial affirming Saturday as the biblical Sabbath. What’s the story behind this initiative?
Leo Schreven: We have an amazing staff of really talented people who get together a couple times a year to brainstorm how to reach the whole world in the most effective way, in the shortest amount of time, using modern technology. The idea of the Super Bowl came out of these sessions. You have an audience of 106 million people in one place. It is the only program in the world where people watch the commercials more than the game. It is super efficient costing only 3 cents per person. Our staff loves to think out of the box and this was pretty much a no brainer way to reach the masses. We have run tests using our website, www.goallpower.com to see what percentage of people go through the whole seminar online, and what percentage become baptized members. A very conservative number shows this ad will produce 3.1 million baptisms in nine months after the Superbowl. These are not numbers picked out of the sky. We have looked at everything, - what percentage of people will see the ad, what percentage will go to the website, what percentage will go through all the seminars online, what percentage will become aware in the forty-five days following the Superbowl, etc. If our very conservative estimate comes true, then the cost will be .82 cents per person baptized. When you compare that to the NAD average of over $1,300 per soul through traditional evangelism, then the benefits are obvious. That is why we are so excited about it.
JW: The target number of petition signers listed on the website, 144,000, is significant to most Adventists. Why this number?
LS: The actual number is 140,000, but we played it up to 144,000 because we knew Sabbath keepers could remember that easier. 140,000 signatures is a number that we can show the NFL we have strong support. This gives a non profit a price break and makes approval of the ad easier. We have much more than 9,400 signatures (displayed on the website). That is just what has come on the website in the last few months through Facebook. With our mail list and other sources we are well on our way to the 140,000 signatures needed.
JW: If the ad were to air on television, beyond generating buzz at the water cooler, what would you want it to achieve?
LS: We have put a lot of thought into this. The ad has two purposes. First to compel the viewer to go to the website. We are creating a website where the same "Jesus" in the ad does a 4 part series on the law, law and grace, the Sabbath, and then the change of the Sabbath. Secondly, the viewer will be invited to continue to watch the rest of the series online to hear the full message of truth. Our research shows however that the real effect of the commercial will come in the forty-five days after the Super Bowl. The ad will circulate world wide and we want it to stir up as much conversation as possible. We know we will be deluged with TV, Radio, and other media interviews. We also know there will be huge opposition from the Protestant community which will only fuel the people to go to the website to see what it is all about. So the main thing we want to achieve is lighten the earth with an issue that will spark a revolution of people discovering the truth of the Bible that will set them free.
JW: Even if this Super Bowl ad garners the support and money needed to go forward, the screening process for Super Bowl ads is rigorous. Media outlets have reported that FOX Sports, who is providing coverage of Super Bowl XLV, rejected an ad featuring John 3:16. Given its somewhat controversial and clearly religious bent, how do you plan to get this ad on TV?
LS: We have put a lot of thought into that as well. The ad had to be written in such a way as to overcome this problem. So, if you read the script we have online, you will see the punch line of the ad has the main guy looking at Jesus saying, "Well, if Saturday is the day of rest and worship, what is Sunday for?" That is where Jesus smiles real big, sits down on the couch with the guys, puts his arms around them and says, "Sunday is for football!" - The NFL just loves that for obvious reasons. They want all the Sunday keepers to watch football, not go to church. So, we are working on this, and we are actually going to invite everyone to help us. This coming week we are launching a $5,000 prize for whoever comes up with the best ad on their own. We know there is a lot of talent out there with our young people and they will come up with things we have not thought of. If any of the readers are interested in how they can participate in this, they can go to our website to learn more.
JW: Do you have alternate plans for this project if the ad cannot be televised?
LS: We do have a back up plan if something happens. As everyone knows, the commercial craze after the Super Bowl online is insane. So, my tech guys have figured out how we can purchase the #1 spot on all the search engines to make our ad come up first, even though it did not run on the official game. We have ways we can spread this viral and still reach a massive audience. But, we don't want to even think about that right now. God has opened dozens of doors so far, and we believe we are going to score a touchdown to God's glory.
JW: Because this is going to be a massive outreach endeavor that will ostensibly be connected with the Adventist Church, to what extent has this initiative sought out and received the endorsement of church leaders?
LS: We sent a letter to all the conference presidents, union presidents, and North American Division president in June informing them of what we are doing and asking for their input. Adventist-laymen's Services and Industries (ASI) recently contacted me and said there was a lot of shuffling going on in June at the General Conference and some missed the letter, so they requested we send the letter again. So we sent it to ASI to distribute as they requested. We have received very strong support from pastors, and a number of conference presidents. I have heard nothing from the unions, NAD or GC so far. Our position is that we welcome all input, and value the counsel of others to help us be as effective as we can be. So the specific answer is that we have heard nothing from the church leaders in Union, Division, or GC, even though we have invited their input in two separate letters. We have had encouraging feedback from a number of conference leaders, and from at least 130 pastors who are delighted with what we are doing.
JW: Your own story, which you’ve shared publicly, includes a fairly dramatic conversion experience from atheism, and a rapid transition to ministry bypassing college. How does your story influence the work you do today?
LS: My background is one I am thankful for because even though I am an ordained minister and have worked in the church for 28 years, I'm also a businessman and work broadly in the corporate community. So we think differently. We operate differently. I personally have a very hard time with the current structure of the church. Notice I did not say, "message," I said, "structure." The message of truth does not change, but the methodology to spread the truth has to change. The church structure today is killing the ability to get the message out in North America. We have five levels of bureaucratic insanity whose whole focus is to preserve the Institution at all cost while the mission is secondary.
The All Power Ministry is a supportive ministry of the church. In the last two years I have worked in thirty-nine conferences and five world divisions. I'm close to many of the leaders and pastors and I deeply appreciate them. But we all see a need for change. So, at All Power we think out of the box. We think big. We hate status quo. We despise church politics. We see a world of near seven billion people who need to be reached. So we are doing things no one else is. This raises some eyebrows and makes a few of the politicians in high places squirm in their britches, but, no one can argue with our success and the millions we are reaching through the All Power Ministry.
We run a world wide ministry with offices in the USA, Germany, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand. But we don't have a single building. Why? Because in the 21st Century you don't need buildings. I know hundreds of billion dollar companies that are run from homes. Let me give an example. Recently a million dollars of tithe paying members money was spent to build a new North Pacific Union office. The tax, heat, lights, Insurance, and maintenance expense is enormous, all paid compliments of the members who are told by the same Union leaders there is no money for evangelism or a full time pastor! I think that is pure insanity. On the other side, we select high quality people, and we show them how to run the business or ministry from their homes. They end up with a home business, get all the tax breaks, and save money. We operate at near 100% efficiency so God's money is used for what it was given for--winning souls. That is just one example of many I could give, but the bottom line is, my work is influenced by a practical, business approach that gives us a huge advantage over the church structure. That is why people love to support us and what we do. Who wants to support an antiquated Union that is working in a 1800s model and does basically nothing when people can support something that is producing amazing results for 1/100th of the cost? It is a no brainer for the average Adventist.
JW: Your outreach efforts can be characterized as mass evangelism campaigns. Some critics of mass evangelism point out that while it can be effective at drawing large crowds and garnering baptisms, it is less beneficial when it comes to retaining church members or helping new converts live out the life of the Kingdom of Heaven. As a pastor and evangelist, how do you respond to such critiques?
LS: The critiques are legitimate. Having done evangelism for twenty-eight years now I can tell you it is the #1 concern we have. The problem is one of structure in my opinion. How can a poor pastor who is pastoring three churches a hundred miles apart ever begin to build a functional congregation? How can he properly nurture and disciple a group of new believers? Especially when his churches are a hundred miles apart.
Why do we have this problem? It is a lack of money. Why do we have a lack of money? Because we have a church structure five levels deep that eats up the majority of tithes and offerings. Congregations left to themselves without strong leadership become stagnant, the focus turns inward, and soon they begin to divide on issues, and become toxic environments to bring new souls into. Until the church is willing to downsize by at least 75% in North America, and put the money back into the local churches with adequate pastors and money to fund outreach ministries, the church will continue its downward spiral and become less and less able to retain and disciple new members.
We are keenly aware of this. So this fall we are launching a new program called, "The Evolution of Revolution" that will specifically provide a solution to this problem. We anticipate over 3 million baptisms within nine months of running the Superbowl commercial, and we are keen to keep these new people and turn them into strong disciples of Christ.
JW: In an interview with David Gibbons for InFocus Christian News, you said of the work you do, “It’s a drug; you can’t get off of it.” “I love it, I’m addicted to it, and I’ll do it til the day I die.” What is it about the work you do that you find so addictive?
LS: I love to see people's lives change 180 degrees. I love to see habits broken and people set free. I love to see that ray of hope spring up in the faces of people. I love to see people get saved. This work is for eternity man! It's like the other day I was in Dubai. On the opening morning three families came up to me and said they had watched all our seminars online and had been recently baptized. We get thousands of emails every week from people around the world with similar testimonies. We serve a big God who says he will bless us above all people on this earth. A God who said you are the head and not the tail. A God who came to give us abundant life. A God who is looking for people who so follow his word and principles that the people of the world will look at them and say, "Wow! Does it ever pay to be a Christian!"
Update: Schreven and the All Power Ministry team announce a Sabbath Reminder Commercial Challenge contest to create the Super Bowl ad. The winner will receive $5,000 according to the contest website.
See also: First and Long for Sabbath Super Bowl Ad
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Leo Schreven!
I came into the church via one of your evangelistic meetings when I was ten years old (Bellingham, Washington, 1995). You were certainly a captivating speaker for a child, and I'm glad to see that your personal enthusiasm has not dimmed.
Good luck with your Super Bowl ad.
Fox said specifically that it will not air an ad pushing religious opinion. It doesn't matter how it is phrased.
A wasted expensive effort with no context...I suggest. Simply confirms to some that SDA's are mainly concerned about a legalistic understanding of the Sabbath.
regards,
pat
Schreven contends that the publicity from the ad will result in millions of baptisms into the Adventist denomination. Indeed, it seems that a massive influx of new members is the precise objective of this campaign. If this attempt at mass outreach accomplishes its objective (obvious obstacles aside), would you consider the effort wasted still?
Leo is prophesying with his marketing tools. If his claims are right there is going to be a revival and re-formation of Adventism in north america. 3 million new members will rock the boat sociologically and administratively, at the very least - and there will be broader societal repercussions. I eagerly await what transpires and hope the ad is shown just to see it all happen!
If it happens it will largely be an american phenomenon because even though people in the USA think because they are caught up in the religious fervour of superbowl then everyone is, the reality is that most of the rest of the world aren't watching, don't know or don't care. It' not a global sport.
God luck Leo and the gang and the 144,000!
If he makes good on his claim of reaching 5 billion people for adventism in the next few years, and his marketing conversion statistics are correct, the powers that be need to quake in their boots. There is no way Adventism as it is currently run, structured and controlled can survive without massive administrative change and the social dynamics of adventism will be mightily challenged. There will be a hornets nest of activity throughout Christendom in reaction and response. There is no way enough pastors could be trained formally to cope with this. Current Adventists will be wildly outnumbered, so the status quo in everything will be dramatically changed. Bring it on! If it happens as Leo plans the church will never be the same again, and it will be a merry circus (no insult to circuses intended!) to watch!!
If the ad isn't accepted for broadcast--as appears likely to be the case--what happens to the contributed money?
Leo contents that 3.1 million people are estimated to be baptised as a result of this ad. Good luck if this works and brings people in. However, I'm interested in how this number has been derived. What assumptions are being made about how this number of people will end up being baptised? I suspect some faulty methodology and thinking here. Wishful thinking is fine, visionary ideas are fine - but using numbers like this to get sponsorship when they don't stack up is deceitful unless they can be shown to be realistic.
I suspect there a lot of numbers involved in the methodology then a little squiggle that represents an act of God.
"These are not numbers picked out of the sky."
I love squiggles! I love acts of God! Unless Leo can demonstrate his prediction's validity, or the superbowl ad can do the trick (with all that goes behind the all power scenes as well) it could well be another great disappointment. Oh well, we're good at rationalising them away so we are forever right!!
http://www.goallpower.com/superbowl/
Hard to watch this without feeling I am being sold a used car.
Leo wonders why the administrators are silent. They are not stupid. It's not about their lack of faith. Leo can say and do as he likes, he has no constituency, just a following of his charisma. If he falls flat with this, he can brush it off, make some reasons why it didn't work and get on with what he does. If the church leaders back something like this and it falls flat, they are screwed. There will be people screaming foul at false advertising, for misleading people, for taking people's money, for inappropriate humour, for frilvolous evangelism, ..., ... They have everything to lose by backing this.
God can and does do miracles, but Leo isn't promising this. He is promising results based, supposedly although he is not revealing details, on his past results. This is a one man show and he can get away with it. The church has much to lose and won't get away with it no matter what happens.
Leo Schreven is all about Leo Schreven. He can do and say what he likes - he is not accountable to the SDA church. If something like this Superbowl scheme fails - who will have to pick up the pieces? You can bet it won't be Leo. He'll be off dancing around the world, dragging in the shekels and promoting his brand of gospel in another place.
Tonight, a friend and I went to the local county fair. I noticed some church group in a booth, displaying some glossy pamphlets, including the usual how-to-get-to-heaven materials. But among them, prominently featured, was a flyer for a guy whose well-coiffed, business-suited demeanor screamed "motivational speaker." I picked up a copy, and looked into it tonight when I got home.
It's an ad for a guy named Leo Schreven, who is a part-time or former Seventh-Day Adventist preacher. He now goes around giving these "All Power" seminars which he claims are worth $200, and seems to indicate he's quite wealthy now. (And you would be too, if you just followed his advice.)
So how did he become wealthy? Starting a business? Investing in the stock market? Building a better mousetrap? Struck oil in his backyard?
On his web site, he promotes a jaw-droppingly expensive ($700!) collection of CD and DVDs. He apparently also encourages you to buy a license to promote his materials to your friends. And when you sign someone up, you get $100. And when they sign up someone else, you'll get another $100. And when they renew their "business license", you'll make some more money.
But hey, it's not a "pyramid scheme". How do I know? Because it says so right there at the top of his "compensation plan": "It is not a pyramid scheme." Sadly, I'm learning that of the surest signs of a pyramid scheme is that it spends a lot of time insisting it is not a pyramid scheme.
And of course he's rich! Think of it: if he can just move a measly 1,000 copies of these things each year (and he apparently travels around the world promoting his stuff), and keep $500 profit from each (there's $200 taken from his cut of each sale, either as 2-level upline profit, or a cut for the seller), he'll be making a cool $500,000 annually!
Re the post immediately above: see http://tim.2wgroup.com/blog/archives/001575.html
"The Energizer Bunny"
http://www.masterzenith.com/orderpage/
"Leo Schreven Speaker, Trainer, (The Energizer Bunny) is a world class Motivation and Life Mastery skills teacher. He is the Director / Speaker of "All Power Seminars" and "All Power Network."
"Leo travels an average of 320 days per year teaching principles of success, personal power, and living life with no limits. Known for his endless energy, side splitting humor and rapid fire speaking, he is loved by millions around the world. He is an author, TV personality, businessman, and humanitarian. He lives in Washington with his wife Tamara and daughter."
"Leo travels an average of 320 days per year ... He lives in Washington with his wife Tamara and daughter." ???
Leo is a fit, energetic, positive guy who is very motivated to live the good life and to share it with others.
He's a promoter of Adventist theology, wealth and prosperity, healthy living, and Mannatech nutritional products (Mannatech is a multi-level company).
He's about to walk across America as a fundraiser for the Mannatech charity, and to develop his business at the same time. I see this is well-integrated.
"Leo Schreven, Mannatech Associate, Seminar Leader and World Traveler, announces a special walk that he will be doing as a fundraiser for MannaRelief. Beginning February 9, 2011, he will walk across the United States of America, from Florida to California in 100 days. Along the way, he will hold Mannatech meetings every evening, and there will be tons of press coverage."
http://mannaquest.mannatech.com/archives/leo-schreven-presents/1024
Leo is an inspiration with huge dreams and ideas. I've learned a lot from him. Perhaps his Superbowl idea will work.
I can hardly believe what i am reading here. I wish now I had saved the letter that I had recieved from him probably about 6 months ago, stating how much money he would need for the year to continue ministry, inferring that because of his wife's illness, he wouldn't be able to do it, unless he got help from those who cared and wanted to support
Interview with Leo Schreven
29 December 2010
http://sdachurchwarwick.org/index.php?news&nid=6
"Your website briefly lists areas of personal improvement. One of them offers the participant the opportunity to “retire a millionaire”. What do you mean by that? Is it realistic?
"Absolutely. I have over 4,200 teens who followed what we have taught them and by age 21 became millionaires. There are thousands of adults as well. I grew up an extremely poor immigrant kid - no one had it worse than me. But I now own 5 corporations and have made millions of dollars. Most people are not aware of what the Bible really says about wealth. We have negative views of money which come from years of religious tradition. I go through 49 Bible verses on this presentation. It sets people free. Let me be first to say, the issue is not money or to become a millionaire. That is simply the result of following God's principles and financial laws. The issue is freedom. Once you have financial freedom, your worries are over, the stress is over, and you are free to do God's work 100% of the time without worrying where the next paycheck will come from. So, I will teach people exactly how to do it - how to get out of debt, how to build business systems, how to create residual income that flows whether they work or not, how to pay zero taxes, and how to create multiple streams of income. The majority of people who apply what we teach them are millionaires in 3 years or less. And that is the key - applying what we teach. Anyone can get a head full of knowledge, but to be financially free you have to do the work and apply the knowledge."
I'm liking this guy! How to become a millionaire in 3 years or less and how to pay zero taxes. Sounds real good> Where do I go to get this learning?
Hmmm.
Jared, How did the ad go?
What I find interesting in retrospect is that if this guy is also a SOP pusher how he could contribute by attempted advertising to "football as schools of brutality" and use the "world's methods" to promote his understanding of what he thinks true Christianity of the SDA variety represents.
Jared, thanks for the interview. I've seen the ads from time to time and wondered what they were about. I appreciate that you have been able to enlighten us. I believe in trying a variety of methods to reach the people of this generation, so I'm pleased some people have dreamed big and thought outside the usual parameters. Obviously, this isn't just about an advertisement. Leo and his team will have developed a complete program and package to draw interests in and then lead them on a journey, culminating in baptism.
A conservative estimate of 3.1 million baptised converts into the Adventist church is wonderful. We are in an age where this is possible, given the hunger so many have and the technology to be able to reach them in ways that individually we can't.
I'm sure Leo and his team have thought long and hard about what might happen, as indicated in the interview. I agree with Leo that the structures of the church are no longer suitable for today's world. I would be interested in seeing you do a followup interview with Leo to find out more of what his thoughts are. If so many new converts come into the church, how can the current church cope with the influx - with regard to facilitaties, local church discipling, mentoring and leadership, training pastors, dealing with the conflicts that inevitably arise when large numbers of people join an existing group, ... I'd also like to see Leo's calculating of the anticipated numbers of converts. Are they just as a result of the ads on the Superbowl day, or are their others plans to continue advertising, seed sowing and harvesting? Would seminars be running across the USA as follow ups to the ads, such as Net98?
There is only a year until Superbowl 2010. I'm keen to continue hearing of the thinking and planning that is going on behind the scenes so that I can become part of this potentially historic evanglistic project. I'm sure there are many others of us who would be keen to be involved - but we need details and insights so that we can be "on the same page" rather than having to trust blindly that all is happening. when we are involved it becomes ours,.
Please thank Leo for his sharing, and ask (like Oliver Twist!), "please can we have more?!"
The details of the proposed Superbowl Ad from ;
http://goallpower.com/superbowl/commercial.php
SCENE> LIVING ROOM, BIG SCREEN TV, DRINKS, SNACKS, THREE GUYS & 2 GIRLS SITTING ON A COUCH YELLING AND TOTALLY ENGAGED IN THE GAME.
Jesus walks into the house where they are watching the Super Bowl and stands beside the TV.
"Jesus?"
"Hello everyone, did you all go to church today?"
"Umm, Yes Jesus, we all went this morning!"
"Did you forget the 4th commandment says to keep the 7th day holy?"
"Huh?"
"The 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God."
"What day is the 7th day?
"Uhh, the 7th day is Saturday!"
"That's right. Check out the website to get all the facts."
"Well, if Saturday is the holy day for church and worship, then what is Sunday for?"
"Sunday is for football!"
Doritos spent millions, I still won't buy them. I will buy Wisc Cheese! Tom Z
So the visual for the proposed ad must be over the top. I don't see anything riveting or humorous about the script.
Cannot support Sabbath Add:
Why not focus on the massage of Jesus summarized in the Sermon of the Mount? Call the world to mercy, compassion, dealing with anger, forgiveness, murder, sexual abuse and world peace (bless your enemies, peacemakers)? Neither Jesus (always fighting against legalistic Sabbath keeping), nor Paul in his letters or missionary accounts ever made Sabbath the centerpiece of his mission to the Gentiles.
It seems to me that if we make legal issues—Sabbath keeping—our media flag that identifies us as Christians it will produce individuals missing the love of humanity that make gospels so appealing cross culture and time.
When Jesus was asked what was the greatest commandment he replayed it was to love God and others— goodness and kindness all around. Let’s move to the center instead of the fringe.
This is what I believe. But I know this hard for my church. Because EGW has set the tone declaring that “the Sabbath is the great test question” for the entire world which often blinds our eyes to the greater messages of the Gospel stories.
Why in the world would Leo focus on some huge Sabbath marketing campaign when the majority of viewers need to come to know Jesus? From a Christian worldview, the Sabbath means absolutely nothing without Him. "Sabbath keepers" helped put him on the cross. This is in line with so much of our public evangelism that unfotrtunately emphasizes the correct day of worship, rather than the One to be worshipped.
Additionally, how does Leo's message about retiring as a millionaire, and achieving financial freedom, square with the One who said, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head?" Or, how does it square with his counsel to the rich, young ruler to divest himself of his wealth, in order to have the freedom to follow Jesus? It's not the issue of having or not having money, it's the fact that Leo has made this into a ministry focus connected with being a free follower of Christ that is the theological problem. It doesn't add up.
I do, however, agree with his take on the church institution being a bureaucratic cash drain on members and local congregations. This is also out of whack, and totally out of line with the picture one gets of the NT church.
Thanks...
Frank
"Absolutely. I have over 4,200 teens who followed what we have taught them and by age 21 became millionaires."
Where, or where are those more than 4,000 millionaire teens? Still spreading Sabbath? Isn't that worth a survey and book? Tony Robbins, and Zig Ziglar should add Leo to their circus (circuit).
Elaine
I must admit, I'm glad to hear that the GC does not want to be involved! The plan sounds extremly naive to me. Our message should be the Gospel, Jesus, not one of the laws.
Read Leo Schreven's new book and you will very soon find out where his focus is: making money, not the Gospel.
In his All Power Seminar you will hear promises like: you can gain control over your finances and over your health. Just follow his method. Sounds very much like a God in heaven where you just have to push the right buttons and whooosh here we are: healthy millionaires all over the planet...
And when I hear about the letter Fay received I can only wonder...
Please Jared, keep us on track. I'm curious about the actual results.
3.1 million baptisms in 9 months?! This is "a very conservative number," mind you.
Mr Schreven has one thing right--he knows how to hit Adventist buttons & pockets.
Glory & power & money to Leo...
Leo says:
We also know there will be huge opposition from the Protestant community which will only fuel the people to go to the website to see what it is all about. So the main thing we want to achieve is lighten the earth with an issue that will spark a revolution of people discovering the truth of the Bible that will set them free.
More than 100 years after Ellen White came out so strongly against antagonizing those of other faiths, Leo see’s virtue in doing just such a thing. So much for followers of Jesus being known for their love . . . .
Jared reminds us
Schreven contends that the publicity from the ad will result in millions of baptisms into the Adventist denomination. Indeed, it seems that a massive influx of new members is the precise objective of this campaign. If this attempt at mass outreach accomplishes its objective (obvious obstacles aside), would you consider the effort wasted still?
This is a great question. Do the results justify the means? Many would think so which is why we do community survey’s that are not really about gathering information at all.
One of the well-known principles of advertising is that an ad has to be repeated many times in order for it to be effective. While Super bowl ads are different, it is hard to imagine the kinds of numbers he is promising from a single Ad. If these numbers were legitimate, would you not already find Leo having such high levels of conversions every place he goes, that new churches would need to be built and the stories would be told on the front of every union paper?
I actually do find the idea of doing a super bowl ad focusing on Sabbath to be an interesting idea, but how about focusing on the idea that Sabbath is a day to party with God and friends, that it is a day to go make the world a better place, that it is a great gift from God rather than you are wrong and we are right approach.
In the grip of grace
Steve Moran
This is the letter being sent to all prospective donors:
"How would you like to lead millions to discover the Sabbath truth and win $5,000?
You’re probably saying, “how can I do that?” Well, let me share with you this exciting opportunity.
As you know, we are planning to run a commercial about the Sabbath on the biggest football game of the year once we have 144,000 people sign the petition and pledge to donate $20. Which by the way, we are well on the way to achieving, and it’s growing faster every day.
Over the last couple months, we have been receiving a lot of feedback, suggestions, and ideas concerning the current commercial script and it has prompted us to lay down this Sabbath Commercial Challenge."
Great Ponzi Scheme!
Elaine
"How would you like to lead millions to discover the Sabbath truth and win $5,000?
*****************
This is just ridiculous!!!!
Frank
This whole shennigan wreaks. I think this says more about those who are buying into scheme, than it even does about Leo. I'm certain the 'Seventh Day Adventist' would not appear on the commercial but did, I would hope this would find most Seventh Day Adventists covering their face with a pillow. The whole thing is so lame and so revealing and has nothing to do with the God that we worship; to me it looks more like a genie in a bottle.
This think about over 4 thousand teenagers that are now millionaires, I do not buy into, or at least the whole truth is not being told. This is the part, actually, that has my curiousity peaked...smelling a rat
How credible is a person who claims this: that thanks to him 4 thousand teenagers are now millionaires?
How probable is it, that thousands of people will find Jesus just because they saw an ad about us being right about the Sabbath?
This conversation raises an interesting question. Most of the comments I've seen here have been skeptical at best, and hostile at worst, to the idea of airing this ad on TV.
If you were to spend $3 million on an ad that 100 million or more Super Bowl viewers would see, what would your ad look like (keeping in mind that you're up against cars and chips and sodas and beer...)?
Leo's All Power commercial could be bracketed between one for Bud and another with Liz Hurley (yyyyyukkkk!) selling Brazilian (What, mummy?).
Out of the 66 (that many?) this year, which was best?
I wouldn't spend $3 on a super bowl ad. Use that money to fund some campus ministry centers at secular universities. Make a difference in the lives of young people.
Hmmm.
Jared, How did the ad go? -Pat Travis
Just to clarify, because there seems to be a little confusion here and there: This ad, which has spent quite some time on the drawing board, is tentatively targeting the 2012 Super Bowl--next year. It did not take place during yesterday's big game.
Well, Jared, Ozzy Osbourne has the hair, and Jack Sparrow the beard, so another hairy dude wouldn't be out of place, except in the board-room where those untold millions are made.
Maybe the bald dome with rat-tail, piercings and ink would be the go?
Can we get his Mum into it, as a Sarah Palin lookalike?
Jared I'm not hostile to the idea of airing an ad. But Leo Schreven is the wrong person to be responsible for the ad. Have a look at the All Power Seminar and you'll find out why. We are supposed to preach the gospel, the APS is a distorted gospel. Interestingly enough it is quite popular among conservative Adventists. Those who spend hours fighting about details like the length of a creation day, do not recognize a distorted gospel.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sabbath-Reminder-Superbowl-Ad-Petition/100...
How would you like to lead millions to discover the Sabbath truth and win $5,000?
You’re probably saying, “how can I do that?” Well, let us share with you this exciting opportunity.
As you know, we are planning to run a commercial about the Sabbath on the biggest football game of the year once we have 144,000 people sign the petition and pledge to donate $20. Which by the way, we are well on the way to achieving, and it’s growing faster every day.
Over the last couple months, we have been receiving a lot of feedback, suggestions, and ideas concerning the current commercial script and it has prompted us to lay down this Sabbath Commercial Challenge.
One of our ministry supporters is offering a financial prize to encourage you to help us create the best Sabbath reminder commercial.
That’s right. If you have a creative idea, then share it and we will vote on it.
All you have to do is write, shoot, and submit a 30 second video before May 20, 2011. We will post the videos online and let everyone vote on which one they like best.
If your video receives the most votes, you will receive the $5,000 grand prize!
Here is how your donation to the Sabbath ad will have an impact
https://goallpower.com/passiton/
$25 will create around 50,000 ad impressions
$50 will create around 100,000 ad impressions
$100 will create around 200,000 ad impressions
$250 will create around 500,000 ad impressions
$500 will create around 1,000,000 ad impressions
$1,000 will create around 2,000,000 ad impressions
They are promoting joining the "A Team" and put in money regularly:
Sabbath Announcement Team: See how many people you can reach with a $25 a month donation while helping to assemble a team that is dedicated to sharing this message to mass audiences around the world!
http://www.goallpower.com/ateam/
So, this was intended to be the latest most techological way to reach people?
"Christ's method alone will give true success in reaching the people. The Saviour mingled with men as one who desired their good. He showed His sympathy for them, ministered to their needs, and won their confidence. Then He bade them, 'Follow Me.'"--The Ministry of Healing, p. 143.
Incredible, for once Fox Sports has more sense than free lance Adventist evangelism. The entire pitch of the Super Bowl is beer, fast cars and faster women. Furthermore, what does the Sabbath have to do with salvation? The entire proposal sound like a Mel Brooks movie. Tom Z
"If you were to spend $3 million on an ad that 100 million...?" Jared, what I am seeing is that the whole idea of taking out the ad is absurd.
If Leo is following he must be seeing a that he does not have a strong following here. I am sure there are things in his seminars I could gain from but what I see in his video clips is hyper enthusiasm. It is personality and it is not me. Bottom line is that he is a salesman committed to the product he sells and has his success as proof. As with any sales pitch (and especially with the fast ones) I always have to think about it for a while and then expect answers or clarifications. So if you are out there Leo, how do you come up with these conservative projections?
"If you were to spend $3 million on an ad that 100 million...?" Jared, what I am seeing is that the whole idea of taking out the ad is absurd.
I think that the idea of speaking directly to 100 million or more people all at once during the most-watched sporting event on the planet is a direct outgrowth of the Adventist evangelistic (in the common use of the word) ethos. Ingrained in Adventist culture is the romantic idea of reaching every person in every exotic corner of the earth, early adoption of new media to do it, a sense of urgency given the presumed shortness of time (and some believe, the ability to hasten the Lord's return), and finally the notion of finishing the work. While it feels awkward and uncomfortable for many, I would contend that Adventisty ads targeting millions of people all at once is a logical extension of these cultural sensibilities.
While there is plenty to critique about this manner of interacting with people, it probably should not come as a surprise that people are proposing doing it, I don't think.
Jared, I agree with you. This is a natural outgrowth of the Adventist mindset. I'd love to see this project take off - if the numbers and projections can be verified. At the moment it is purely a "trust me" from Leo. Please get him to document some more
1. Details of the projectsion and numbers
2. Details of the methods and plans for the stages beyond the showing of the ad over several hours in February 2012
3. Outline of possible ways to restructure the church at all levels for efficiency
4. Plans for how the church can/will cope/thrive with 3 million new adventists in 9 months, primarily in USA.
I'm keen to learn more.
I'm looking forward to the follow up interview.
Thanks Jared and Leo.
(If Leo doesn't want to do it for Spectrum, perhaps he could send me and other friendly's the details)
The most watched sporting event on the planet?
I dare say the World Cup soccer/football final has more globally watching. than US-centric Superbowl
According to this report, Super Bowl XLV was the most viewed television event ever with 111 million viewers. The Olympics and World Cup events have more cumulative viewership since they last several days.
[LINK FIXED]
The link didn't work, try again!
Jared, will you get some more info from Leo?
It's worth it!
Again, I find it very telling that someone like Leo Schreven would look to take out an ad that would placard through mass media the correct day for the Sabbath, as opposed to what Paul told the Galatians was responsible for changing their lives, "...Christ Jesus crucified was placarded before your very eyes."
Christ and him crucified was the substance and the transforming power of Paul's preaching. Meanwhile in traditional SDAism....once again the emPHAsis is on the wrong sylLABle.
Thanks...
Frank
Spot on, Jared, with "logical extension". No surprise. Remember those satellite receiver disks? All the phones ringing in 'Lawnmower Man'? Those invisible waves in the ether, just tune in your personal antenna to pick up The Power. Who was that again? A roving NZer, was it Garrie Williams?
Taking out the ad may be "a direct outgrowth of the Adventist evangelistic ethos" but that doesn't eliminate the idea of it being absurd.
Quick question: I hear the terms "Sabbath Truth" and "Truth about the Sabbath" used ubiquitously and glibly within Adventist circles. So what is the Sabbath Truth?
Oh, that's easy, many say. The Sabbath Truth is the truth that the Sabbath falls on Saturday (and Friday night), not on Sunday.
OK, then, another quick question: What was the Sabbath Truth during the thousands of years preceding the the change of worship times that came about during the early-Christian era? What was the Sabbath Truth back when the specific day hadn't become an issue yet? What was the Sabbath Truth that God was highlighting in the Ten Commandments?
That information doesn't lend itself to a 60-second television commercial that in essence is little more than a slogan: It's Saturday, not Sunday, stupid. Yet it's that deeper background information that alone can move the Sabbath from being nothing more than another layer of legalism to being a significant contributor to our relationship with the God who wants us to rest in the peace that comes from personally knowing that He is both our Creator and our Redeemer.
I'm all for sharing the Sabbath Truth with the world. But before we spend millions on a glitzy ad to be sandwiched between Budweiser commercials, maybe we should make sure that what we're sharing really is the Sabbath Truth.
Jim
>>> The Sabbath Truth is the truth that the Sabbath falls on Saturday (and Friday night), not on Sunday.
and that we don't have Biblical guidance about where to put the international date line, and so it is not possible to Biblically establish whether it should be Friday, Saturday, or Sunday in the USA.
/Bevin
So the ad says that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. The question comes back. Which day isn't He Lord of? He gave the Sabbath to the slaves of Egypt for rest. Now it becomes a day for worship?
Again the question, on which day is it inappropriate to worship God?
I don't think the issue is made for less that the full two hours of the Super Bowl! Then is that the Good News of the Christ Event? If you had only a minute or two to tell the Good News, What would you say? Would Jesus Saves? Trump the Seventh-day as the correct day to worship Him?
The venue is wrong, the message is wrong. the waste of money is wrong. As I suggested at the beginning it is a prostitution of the Gospel. For what? Membership not redemption. Tom Z.
Good points Jim and others. Maybe Leo would do more sevice to SDA's by putting up Jn.3:16 followed by...offered by your friends the SDA's without the mention of sabbath.
Here is the John 3:16 ad the network has already refused to show:
http://www.movieline.com/2011/02/watch-the-john-316-commerical-that-the-...
This ad also shows the copycat nature of Leo Schreven. The script for Leo's http://goallpower.com/superbowl/commercial.php ad has major similarities to the John 3:16 one. Robert Kiyosaki wrote an international bestselling book "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" and a Christian copycat wrote "Rich God, Poor God" now Leo is promoting his own "Rich God Poor God" book on financial wealth. Anthony Robbins has a Life Mastery program, Leo calls one of his programs Life Mastery.
What clever super-bowl advertising does is look for cute "hooks" and turns of phrases.
It seems obvious that the Sabbath is only mentioned as a setup hook for Sunday being for football, which every footballer would cheer loudly for.
If one is looking for that "hook" and a relevant point in Adventism to attach it too, thats it. Its not like you can link the state of the dead and football or anything like that. And to the extent that you could, not many people knowing our position on the state of the dead would lead to them missing the joke.
As far as a snappy premise goes that provides a SDA linkage with a hook, its not bad. Whether one should do it is another matter as is if the network would even let you as has been covered.
All the talk about the Sabbath and Lord of the Sabbath and such miss the whole point of what is being suggested.
Michael
All the talk about the Sabbath and Lord of the Sabbath and such miss the whole point of what is being suggested
***************
I disagree, Michael. It surely gets the point of how the issue's core needs to be viewed. Is it the main purpose of seeking mass media exposure to show people the primary distinctive of Adventism, or to show them the saving love and grace of Christ, and awaken a longing for him? Hence, Pat's suggestion of John 3;16. Which emphasis is more central to reaching a lost world?
The Sabbath means nothing from a Christian perspective without people first knowing its Lord. And, Adventism means nothing without this as well. Thus, use the one shot, and the funding for what is primary to Christianity, not secondary.
I do agree with you that this will probably be moot. The networks look like they wouldn't go the root of religious advertising during the beer and food fest. As Tom said, the venue is wrong, the waste of money would be wrong, and on our end, the message would be the wrong one to choose to give.
Thanks...
Frank
Today I received the following correspondence from Leo Schreven with a request that it be passed on to readers of this article:
I have to laugh and cry at the same time when I read some of the responses. Such negativity, hatred, gossip, and defeated mentalities. I would encourage all the naysayers to go online to www.goallpower.com and watch the seminars online free so they can learn that with God all things are possible, and that God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind. May I clarify a few things that will be helpful?
1. We have not taken money for the Superbowl ad. We will not take money till we get the ad approved, the 140,000 signatures, and everything in order. We have taken donations for people to place ads on Facebook to spread the word about it.
2. The money issue is always such a sad thing in the SDA church. I teach financial stewardship in one of the 20 All Power Seminars. It has 49 bible verses. It has helped million of people world wide financially to follow God's principles of finance. But SDA's typically have such a limited and negative view of money they become blinded by their traditions. What the one person wrote about the ponzi scheme is just over the top for example. If the truth were to be known, my wife and I dedicate our whole life to evangelism 300 plus days a year.
We do not draw a salary from the church, we work free and volunteer all our time. Last year we personally donated 91% of the ministry budget, and over the years have donated millions to the church. In case your readers do not know it, - we are the #1 soul-winning team in North America, baptizing more new members, planting more new churches, and bringing in more new tithe than any ordained minister in North America year after year. If anyone out there would like to prove me wrong, please speak up.
3. I can guarantee that 99.9% of the naysayers have never listened to the All Power Seminar. This seminar is one of the most powerful soul-winning tools in the church. Our passion is to reach the lost and lead them to the joy of salvation. If I were about money and wealth, believe me, I could have retired at age 27 without a care and never worked another day of my life. My wife and I have donated nearly everything we have, as do my business corporations. This is why all our seminars are online free, and I donate nearly every project we do for the church world wide. Anyone who thinks I am making money off people for what I do as a pastor needs their head examined!
4. I'm probably the most thorough guy in the world when it comes to statistics and facts. Thats what helps us to be successful in business as well as ministry. I can assure you that hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of dollars have been spent doing the research on this project. If the truth were to be known, our models show 7.3 million baptisms within 9 months. The 3.1 million is the worst case scenario. We already have a website where many around the world are taking online bible studies, and we are tracking these results. I don't have time or space here to put all this down obviously, but everyone need to know our team has done their homework. Come on everyone, we serve a big God, a God who is not limited in His thinking. Look at the results of the church in North America. We are dying. So if what the church is doing is not working, then why be so skeptical, negative, and unbelieving about something that pushes you out of your comfort zone of status quo? Think of what God can do, - as Joshua said, - "We are more than able to do this." You all sound like the multitude that are cowering on the border of Canaan saying, "We feel like grasshoppers in the sight of the giants!" Let's have some men of faith who say, "If you believe, nothing shall be impossible to you!"
Wishing all blessings and favor,
Leo Schreven
Leo
I'm sorry but your posting sounds like a first draft of a script for an SDA sit-com.
Aage
Leo said: This is why all our seminars are online free.
Okay, so I went to the All Power Seminar official website and the seminars are being offered on CD for $199.99. Are the FREE seminars listed elsewhere? I don't see any mention of such generosity....not that I'm looking to attend one. Just checking.
Oy, God works through all kinds of avenues, but He and his message are also diminished through all kinds of avenues. And I'm afraid that this just sounds like a stereotypical scam! And rather crass, I may add. Definitely not the way I would ever share Jesus with anyone.
I agree, RD. It's not about the Sabbath. It's about a relationship with Jesus. I hope Leo does not succeed in his venture. What an awful image of SDAs if this goes through. It's embarrassing and a travesty to have the Sabbath pushed out on a limb like this, with no context, no connection, no warmth. Legalism at its worst!
i've listened to some of the talks...and it looks like we are riding piggy-back on the 'Name It: Clam It' ..people in evangelical/fundamentalist arenas. That is already running it's course and getting old; people are leaving with a sour taste in their mouths.
My curiosity about the crowd of millionaire teenagers has not dimished
"God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind. "
Maybe it is His gift of sound mind that causes caution.
I bet Dodge hopes it does as well with their few minutes as Leo projects for his. I wonder if Leo has bought any stock in the companies that took out AD's this year on the basis of his projections of impact.
I notice that General Motors is running a banner Ad on the bottom of the Spectrum site. I plan to keep my Lexus thank you.
Tom Z
If it is true:
"our models show 7.3 million baptisms within 9 months." Why is it unreported in the Review? Surely, such an increase in baptisms in less than a year would be really big news.
Also, if thousands of teens have become millionaires, why the total silence? Are they sworn to keep quiet? This is not the advertising wished, is it? Such exaggerated figures only raise skepticism.
Elaine
"Trust me, I know what i am talking about." Perhaps Leo is right. But in matters financial and in matters spiritual that is not enough and has never been enough. Every day people are fleeced of their hard earned money by such spruiking. Every day people are being fleeced spiritually by such spruiking. Leo may be right, but he needs to back up his claims with substance, facts and clear thinking. God has given us minds to use to evaluate what is best for us individually and collectively. Leo is not my God and never will be.
I dislike visionary ideas being criticized all the time. That is easy to do. So I'm midway on this spectrum. I like to think big and encourage others to as well. I also like to be kept informed not simply asked to blindly trust.
Jared, keep asking Leo for details. 7.3 million baptisms in 9 months is massive. This would be the marketing coup of the ages. Perhaps it is for real, but no evidence of the calculations, figures, baseline assumptions, etc have been provided. "Truth can stand any investigation of itself" is the gist of what Ellen White once wrote. I'm keen to hear more from Leo. More of us are likely to support something if it is shown to be grounded in reality instead of based on trust in a person we don't know.
Regarding the criticisms of the nature of the ad. It isn't the contents of the ad itself that is crucial. That is the hook to get viewers to bite and to find the substance behind it. I think it is culturally ridiculous to try to preach a sermon through an ad sound bite. But it can be something to get attention. That is what this ad is about. In the follow up to the responses I would want to know that the focus is on Jesus, not on Sunday bashing and Sabbath/Sunday wars.
I'm still keen to hear from Leo what the strategies beyond the ad and over the 9 months are. Also, how can we prepare the church for the 3 to 7 million new members. It will stretch the church to breaking point in some places and without leadership and structures in place that will nurture and hold it together the whole thing could unravel. We can do it, but a skyscraper needs bigger foundations that a suburban house. It is prudent to plan this as well as seek the blessing of the Spirit.
SDA's should be really glad that religious ads will probably never be allowed during the Superbowl game. I totally agree with this.
He also "knows" that there will be huge opposition from the Protestants...that alone should make people seriously question what he knows. Christians don't give a thought to what day someone chooses to attend church. That is only in the minds and doctrine of Adventists.
I also enjoyed the comment that the NFL wants "Sunday keepers" (truly SDA terminology), to watch football, not attend church. Maybe Leo should check the schedule...the game starts late afternoon/early evening (depending on the time zone).
carol f.
Leo had announced a great success here in Germany. I don't see any of it many years later now. Instead, the German Hope Chanel has taken him completely out of their program and most administrations do not cooperate or work with him.
I would be very happy if our GC decided not to allow him to use our official name in the ad. I do not want to have anything to do with it. My faith is a person whom I trust, not a conviction of right day of worship.
I can think of a million better ways to introduce the Sabbath truth in a Super Bowl ad than this. I hope this one doesn't make it on the air. As others have said, most who saw an ad in the form suggested in this story would just think it was strange. Myself included.
One thought about this guy's format... his ad immediately sets up a subtle confrontational stance with people who (whether we believe wrongly or not) cherish Sunday as a special day to God. Why come into their livingrooms and encourage a sense of antagonism? Great way to introduce yourself. Instead, if an ad is done it should depict the power of the Sabbath as a reunion with nature, other people, and the Creator - a time away from business, busy-ness, and electronic overload. The invitation to breathe, rest, and be restored by directly interacting with nature is powerful on its own. Then say something like "Sabbath - experience it for yourself" and plug a site to more information if anyone is attracted enough to look into what Sabbath can be for themselves. The unchurched and the formerly -churched would especially appreciate finding out about all the myriad ways they can start celebrating the true Sabbath on their own or with their family and friends.
Right on, Phil!
Imagine an ad that actually is way different to all the others, that creates a sense of peace and calm and appeal in the midst of all the ads and tv programs. Give people a taste of Sabbath and wanting to know more because they've experienced a tiny bit of it and desire more. Would be amazing!
This approach would be much more in the spirit of Jesus than a confrontational approach.
Phil, write you ad and you might win $5000! http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sabbath-Reminder-Superbowl-Ad-Petition/100...
Perhaps what Leo is best offering is a grand idea that provokes and challenges us to discusson and debate and out of that comes an even better idea than he originally came up with.Perhaps we could not knock him but dialogue and build on his ideas.
Farewell Leo! You've had your moment of infamy and glory on the Spectrum site where you have been diced, dissected and derided - as well a having a few fans. Now back to the latest ideas to play with and comment on as the articles about you and your project disappear of the list of recent posts. You've given some entertainment for the intellects where it is easy to talk,. May the Spirit of Life and authenticity guide you in the trenches where you do daily battle. Farewell, and go well...
A truly delusional person never knows he is delusional..... am glad, too, that this ad will fall flat on its face. Leo should spend more time with his ailing wife instead of chasing things less important.
All his seminars are also available FREE online so stop being so negative and trying to add up what you think he is making.
Leo Schreven said:
"I can guarantee that 99.9% of the naysayers have never listened to the All Power Seminar. This seminar is one of the most powerful soul-winning tools in the church. Our passion is to reach the lost and lead them to the joy of salvation."
Since you brought it up, I am one of "the lost," and my Adventist family invited me to a seminar you gave in person in Tyler, Texas, Mr. Schreven.
My best friend, and the kindest person I know (and with a keyboard major in college), played the piano for you on short notice, and you were extremely rude to him in front of the whole congregation, and on the Sabbath day you so extol, if memory serves.
All I could do was go outside and shake and cry. My family was horrified, regretted inviting me, and apologized to me for your behavior. My kind friend, of course, did not take offence, because he truly knows the joy of salvation. I want to be like him when I grow up.
In addition, you were talking very fast and prodding us to express agreement with you, rapid fire, repeatedly, without giving us a single moment to think. I found this very upsetting and disrespectful, and it seemed like a form of attempted mind control to me. I wondered if you were doing some sort of creepy NLP number on us. Are these God's ways?
You strike me as a hard man, Mr. Schreven, a hard-hearted man. I found it difficult and destabilizing to sit in the room with you. I would never let you, or anyone like you, browbeat me into the Adventist church, and I feel badly for those who do.
I'm tempted to think Adventism would be far better off without evangelists. My kind friend invited me to another evangelist's seminar a year or so earlier, and he ended up apologizing to me over and over for the rude and manipulative manner of that evangelist. Even his pastor agreed and was embarrassed that I'd come and witnessed that.
People like my kind friend can share the "joy of salvation" far more convincingly, and without the trauma that Adventist evangelists, in my experience, inflict on people.
I think many, many Adventists will be embarrassed, and will be apologizing, if the Super Bowl ad goes through.
At best, it's déclassé to advertise in that manner, and such tactics don't represent the caliber of the Adventist people I know, or Adventism's profound message, in my opinion.
Really, I don't know if it's the luck of the draw or what, but once in Kansas City I shriveled in horror as Elder Vandeman abruptly stopped preaching and in imperious tones singled out a mother and told her to remove her child, and everyone watched in stunned silence as the offenders slunk shamefully out of the room, banished by the TV Personality.
It was one of those moments when you can feel the mood of the room sink like a stone as everyone imagined being that humiliated woman, mirror neurons being what they are. And all the Adventists were feeling embarrassed for being, well, Adventists, with their Famous Person acting like an imperious scold, and with God only knows how many non-Adventists watching. Collective cortisol levels went off the charts, no doubt.
Why is making people feel one-down an accepted evangelistic tactic?
What will this proposed commercial do but make people feel one-down, and just when they were feeling pretty good, too (depending on how their team is doing)?
I just think the psychology doesn't smell right. People don't like to feel one-down. Psychologically healthy people don't let themselves be manipulated that way.
They ain't gonna buy Adventism, and they shore ain't gonna buy that mood-zapping dress-up Jesus telling them they're all wet.
Or...maybe three million psychologically vulnerable ones will....
You think Adventism has problems now...?
Ah...but God's ways are past finding out. You go, Mr. Schreven....
Maggie
Good Observations. Thanks. (I was a E.M.C. with Vandemen, He had the posture, the moves, the grooming, the voice, he just lack the brains for a day job.)
Yet a more basic question than attitude and presentation. Just exactly what will a converstion to a Seventh-day Sabbath do? Does the concept begin with the proposition that these millions are already Christians and just need an addition piece of armor?
Just exactly what is the Evangel, the Good News of Salvation? Where would one begin doctrinally? Where would one begin in venue--a football game? Why not a spot just following Glenn Beck? Seems the viewer would already be primed.
Jesus sat down by a well, walked with two people for eight miles. sat down on a hillside. Confronted one man on a dustry road.
Yet the basic questions remains: "Why the Sabbath" as the prime time message?
Why not: "So you know where your kids are tonight. how about the rest of the week? "
Tom Z
The punch line in the proposed commercial is "Sunday is for Football?"
There wouldn't be football on Sunday unless every college was playing football on the Sabbath! Why hasn't anyone brought up this point?! Many football fans actually prefer watching college football on Saturday, rather than pro ball on Sunday. By implying that Saturday is not for football you are offending the entire football fan base. This sectarian commercial will never be allowed to air on any network.
The Super bowl is the modern day coliseum - its participants are the modern day gladiators. Though blood is not copiously shed, the gladiators are often permanently injured in these violent events. How can we portray Jesus as approving of this activity?! A vainglorious extravaganza of violent competition and an incredibly inordinate waste of money on the promotion of fleshly ideals and modern idolatry - this should not be a forum from which Adventists promote their message (while even giving credence to such an enterprise!).
Can anyone by the wildest stretch of the imagination conceive of first century Christians wanting to advertise in the Greek theater or the Circus Maximus ? Maybe in Constantine's day.
This whole proposal has a syncretistic smell to it.
Leo and his supporters need to buy some eyesalve from Jesus, not put him in a super bowl commercial.
The History of the Development of the Disillusion within Adventism.
1. 1888 General Conference Session
2. Ellen G. White’s Response
3. 1915 Death of Ellen G. White (Free at last, Free at last!)
4. 1919 Bible Conference: A. G. Daniels; Watched Desire of Ages being compiled.
5. W. A. Spicer Elected President of G. C. on E. G. White Platform. The paradigm for all would be future Church leaders.
6. The flood of E.G. White Compilations.
7. The Power Base of the White Estate Board of Directors.
8. Accreditation of Bible Colleges
9. Preparation of Faculty in Nationally known Institutions.
10. Publication of SDA Bible Commentary.
11. Answers to Questions on Doctrine.
12. Discipline of Elder L. M. Andresesen
13. Robert Brinsmead/Awakening
14. Consolidation of LLU on Loma Linda Campus
15. Consolidation of SDA Seminary at Andrews University
16. The Formation of Adventist Forums/with independent publication: Spectrum.
17. Dr. Des Ford’s Presentation of Adventist Forums at PUC
18. The White Lie: Walter Rea
19. Prophetess of Health: Ron Numbers
20. Desire of Ages Review: Fred Veltmann
21. Dallas General Conference Session /Formation of a Creedal Statement---Drawing a line in the sand.
22. Palmdale Exploration.
23. Glacier View
24. Consultation 1 and 2
25. San Francisco Motel: Closure (The end of the beginning)
26. Southern Missionary College, et al pogrom.
27. Review and Herald Editorial Doctrinal Stance: Adoption of 1888 view of Righteousness by Faith--Perfectionism
28. The battle of the books: The Man Who is God vs. Why Jesus Waits.
29. University Status for all senior SDA Colleges in North America
30. Development of an educated independent constituency.
“Every man did what was right in his own eyes.”
31. The battle ground: Creationism. Sexual Orientation. Status of Women’s ordination. The Sabbath. The Use of Tithe. Autonomy of Higher Education.
32. World wide acceptance of Granola
33. Super Bowl Evangelism
34. Andrews will go head to head with Notre Dame in Basketball, and then Football.
35. Glenn Beck will be commencement speaker at Southern Adventist University.
36. Jesus will return ofnSuper Bowl Sunday and no one will notice.
I'm tempted to think Adventism would be far better off without evangelists.
***********************
Maggie...
Oh, gosh! I've experienced much of the same when I've been "privileged" to attend the evangelistic seminars given by the "media men in suits." Rude, imperious behavior. Rapid fire delivery that doesn't give time for audience thought. A focus on the doomsday scenario of Y2K (remember that?), by one who came across like little more than a snake oil salesman, with hardly a mention of the love of Christ throughout the five week ordeal. The concealing of denominational affiliation and identity as location was moved from public hall to local Adventist church. It goes on and on, and it all seems so manipulative.
During one series, I was mortified when a Catholic relative of mine showed up. It was the third night. The subject?....The identity of the Anti Christ and the Mark of the Beast. She needed to come to know Christ...and this is what was presented! Needless to say...
I've seen too much of this kind of nonsense to have any faith in its spiritual viability any longer. And data has shown that such methods reach less and less people. Only 4% of U.S. survey respondents said that they would be willing to attend a multiple week seminar on biblical prophecy. Of that 4%, the vast majority were of retirement age, not working because of disabilities, or those who were fixated on conspiracy theories and doomsday scenarios. That leaves a vast majority unreached, because of method and focus of message. I believe Monte Sahlin has conducted in house research on this.
All that said, I would agree with what you said, Maggie, with one qualification. I believe that the church needs the gift of evangelism through people using that gift...but not anymore in North America in the way the Adventist church has traditionally packaged it.
Thanks...
Frank
I agree Frank; it's badly in need. What we have come to see as evangelism is only a worldly caricature---lots of dazzle and dramatics, that's pawned off as substance.
Tom, you should write a book about your 36 points. :)
Frank, it just seems like "the gift of evangelism" is a totally different subject, somehow, from "Adventist evangelism."
After Mr. Schreven had told us several times throughout the day that we were "losers" (his word) if we didn't buy his brand of success religion, I was sorely tempted to stand up and tell him that he was being abusive, but I didn't, of course. (That was the church that had me exorcised - best to keep a low profile.)
I remember listening to similarly frenetic Tony Robbins seminars on tape back in the 1980's. Robbins openly tells you how to use NLP, and how to mentally link undesirable behaviors with mental pain in order to extinguish them, but in his case, they are behaviors that he invites his listeners to self-choose to find undesirable in themselves and use his methods to correct.
Mr. Schreven was gratuitously deciding for us, drumming it into us, actually, that we should feel like "losers," in fact were losers, in his terms, if we didn't buy his brand of success religion. And he was actually selling his pyramid scheme thingy (...if it quacks....) in that seminar too. I don't think he actually directly linked not financially buying into his scheme with being a loser, but I mean really, he was doing such a number on us all - surely I wasn't the only one who felt like a beat-up loser for not buying.
(Speaking of feeling beat-up, I also attended a Kenneth Cox seminar with relatives in recent years.)
And according to an internet source, which I haven't verified, Mr. Schreven sells a secular version of his seminar, which I suppose, of necessity, leaves out the "joy of salvation," but otherwise still tells you how to get rich, for those who want their heaven here.
So, Mr. Schreven, if we made you "laugh and cry," you only made me cry. And my "mentality" indeed felt pretty "defeated" after a day with you.
And yes, I'm a "naysayer" to calling people losers for not buying your success religion schemes, pyramid or otherwise.
PS: None of this is to imply that Mr. Schreven doesn't have good information, or that it's not good to take a good deal of his advice, which I could personally benefit from, for sure.
What I'm taking issue with are his hard sales techniques which shade into the abusive, IMO.
Sure, without a doubt, "winners" take responsibility for their lives. But it's pretty sketchy, IMO, when you start telling your listeners they are "losers" if they don't buy your hard-sell shtick, especially when you're actually selling a product.
And, I think, the whole "success religion" thing is pretty much discredited by now.
I've been wondering about this...
JW: Do you have alternate plans for this project if the ad cannot be televised?
LS: We do have a back up plan if something happens. As everyone knows, the commercial craze after the Super Bowl online is insane. So, my tech guys have figured out how we can purchase the #1 spot on all the search engines to make our ad come up first, even though it did not run on the official game. We have ways we can spread this viral and still reach a massive audience.
And just read this...
"Search Optimization and its Dirty Little Secret,"
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/business/13search.html?_r=1&smid=fb-ny...
Hopeful, yes I just finished reading that "Dirty Little Secret" and it isn't dirty if it's done in the name of evangelism.
Oh, yes, has anyone else wondered about who those 4,000 teenagers who became millionaires through his seminars? Wouldn't it be interesting to know exactly how they were able to accomplish so much in so little time--before they were old enough to vote??
Elaine
Last comment - I agree with Elaine and others - that's a passel of millionaire teenagers. They've hardly had time for investments to pay off to that extent, or to accrue that much capital from profits, what with high school and all. Has to be an interesting story. How it's not going to be a story of truncated childhood, and compromised education and relationships is especially interesting to me. The idea of teenage moguls seems singularly unattractive to me, but I'm really trying to keep an open mind.
Also, Mr. Schreven admits that there isn't enough money to deal with the churches that now exist, with pastors having churches a hundred miles apart, etc. - but he has a plan (using what authority?) to revamp the whole system...while...he also plans to simultaneously flood the system with what I can only imagine would be millions of emotionally fragile people of the kind who would innocently follow a Super Bowl commercial into a high-requirement religion.
Now, I don't know if you've read much about the challenges of adopting, say, Romanian orphans, with their multiple challenges, but just imagine taking out a loan to knock out all the walls of your existing house and completely remodel it...while...living there with your present family, with all its quirks...while...simultaneously adopting, say, twelve troubled Romanian orphans from different orphanages.
I mean, it's a nice thought, but...it's not a business plan...it's a recipe for disaster, it seems to me. He says trust me I'm good with numbers, I've got it all figured out. Nobody could figure out all these variables. It's ludicrous.
And add to that the poster who got a letter a few months ago asking for donations so the ministry could go on? Feels pretty shaky.
It feels mean to say all this to someone who "just wants to win souls for the Lord," and whose God is really, really big and all, but honestly, this all just sounds delusional to me.
If it be of the Lord why should one denigrate the Schreven ministry; if not he will not receive the Lord's blessing, that I firmly believe.
How many have actually attended his weekend sessions? If so, tell us about it. I have recently talked with a not dumb person who recently attended and found nothing wrong with the sessions. Another one, not SDA, has had a change for the better in certain lifestyle issues.
I contend unless you have attended or someone you really trust has attended and has given you a report it's time to back off in all fairness. I carry no brief for Schreven but he should be treated fairly.
This will be my last post. :)
I really don't want to denigrate the Schreven ministry, and God is definitely bigger than all of this, Friend.
I'm not made of better stuff, than he - far more fragile, and certainly less productive than he, I'm sure. I wish him the highest in his ministry!
But really, leaving off the daunting logistical mountains, do you expect God to work these great miracles to cause millions of people to "come out of her My people" and join the Adventists the way the church is right now?
Do you really expect Catholics to leave their church and join a so-called "commandment-keeping" church that performs abortions in all its hospitals?
Can you even suggest that to one of our resident Catholics with a straight face?
How is that going to work, pray tell?
Leaving now....
Leave Leo alone!
I want to see this experiment tried.
If it goes to plan it will be the most exciting thing to hit Adventism in 150 years, whether we agree with it or not. Just from a sociological perspective it would be brilliant to learn from. From an organisational change perspective it would be brilliant to watch. From a religious perspective it would be interesting to watch. From a marketing perspective it would be brilliant to watch.
I say "go for it"! It's really simple, yet so many have put lots of baggage and interpretations around it.
It is simply one ad repeated on SuperBowl Sunday - followed by people checking a website, followed up by some more web ads. If someone wants to follow it up let them. If you have concerns, no need to worry. If it goes huge as planned, the media will be scrutinising it closely and Leo and the church will be under the spotlight like never before so they'll need to play at their highest level.
If it falls flat, 144,000 people will have lost their $25 to an experiment - and I bet they lost more than $25 on uneccessary consumer items or food or entertainment frequently. And we'll be like Edison, knowing one more way that doesn't light up the world.
i guess that would depend on what your criteria for 'success' , is.
It has nothing to do with my formula for success. I see it simply as an experiment to see what happens. Too much mind-chatter goes on in this world. Anyone who comes up with an idea has it put down for any number of reasons. I particularly have no interest in Leo Schreven or even evangelism. SDAism isn't a major interest to me, although it was my subcultural upbringing. But I certainly would love to see Leo and his friends give it a go and see what ripples, or even tsunamis, take place!
This topic on Evangelism is going to have to bring up " who is going to baptize when" if this is a world wide effort. Some pastors in 3rd word countries have a lot of churches, some not make their rounds for several weeks because of distances between the many churches in their parish. When a person says "Here is water", how long will they have to wait to be baptized by an "authorized" person? Will there be that many MEN or will we start ordaining women and "authorize" some of them to baptize new believers in these pastor stressed countries? Steve
I suggest that since Leo is so certain of his calculations, an experiment with advertisements for a regular NFL match that maybe attracts 5% viewing of the Super Bowl should yeild Baptisms of about 150,000 which would still be quite impressive, would they not?
Actually for a bit less he could even get the 144,000 the Lord needs. Job done. QED
"I'm probably the most thorough guy in the world when it comes to statistics and facts" (Leo Schreven).
It's a darn good thing Leo included the word "probably" there--in his estimation a greater than fifty percent likelihood--but I'm definitely certain he is not the most thorough guy in this realm. The most thorough guy, for example, would bother to define the following terms:
1. Does "reaching people" mean simply exposing people to our words? What mechanisms for non-manipulative dialogue are planned as follow-up?
2. Is "baptizing" the only means of keeping statistics? How about "keeping" converts? (Any statistics there?) Any stats that determine if their "walk with Jesus is vital, growing, and ongoing"?
3. At what point do we morph into "selling" Jesus? (He's already been sold, you know, for thirty pieces of silver.)
4. "Sabbath truth" also involves the liberation of the planet and all people, including sojourners (refugees)? Will any of that be included in the ad?
5. Will you keep track, statistically, of how many people are "forever turned off" to future messages of Christianity and the Adventist Church as a result of this ad?
I harbor little doubt that Leo Schreven "loves the Lord" and is fervent in his beliefs. My doubts lie principally and sincerely in the preceding questions.
And I love Jesus enough to ask them.
M Manne, what about the damage that comes out of this experiment? What if the damage is much bigger than the "success"? I don't see any hint in the Bible that we are supposed to just drop some words about the right day of worship. Spreading the Gospel is something different.
Let me share a nice story about Leo.
When I was ten years old my mother received a brochure in the mail inviting us to attend one of his evangelistic campaigns at a local Adventist Church. We didn't know anything about Adventism, but we decided to attend. My mother invited Leo and his wife over for dinner near the beginning of the series (before the night on health and vegetarianism), and they attended.
Chicken was the main dish, and the Schrevens, who were vegetarians, graciously ate what was put in front of them (though they very politely declined a glass of wine). Leo, a pulpit spitfire, was actually quite gentle in person-- very personable, reasonable, a good listener, etc. My mother and my aunt were both baptized, though neither of them really attended church thereafter or considered themselves Adventist for more than a few weeks. But to this day my mother remains deeply touched by the kindness of the Schrevens all those years ago.
It's been a humbling thing for me over the years to remember that I am the product of traditional public evangelism. These days I resonate more with Chris Blake's questions above, and I am more repelled by traditional evangelism than drawn to it. But my own history requires me to remain openminded about ministries like Leo's. I suppose most onlookers would, at the time, have considered Leo's outreach to my mother and aunt a failure, since they didn't stick around after their baptisms. But there was also a little kid there (me) who received a heritage (Adventism) that taught her about God's love. She is still in the church!
Leo, I hope you are reading this. Did you know that one of your evangelistic meetings brought a little child into the church who grew up, studied theology at Walla Walla University, became a pastor, and is now part of the web team here at Spectrum? (Yes, I edit the spirituality column.) Thank you for your ministry! Thanks for being willing to eat chicken at my mom's house, even though you were a vegetarian. Thanks for bringing me into the church. Sometimes I wish you didn't-- sometimes I wish I could be spared the headache of belonging to such a conflicted and conflicting community! But most of the time I am incredibly grateful to be right where I am. So thank you. Traditional evangelism is not my favorite witnessing model these days, but it certainly worked for me.
Can anyone recall that either Jesus or all the apostles in the early Christian church who preached about Sabbath? Was it even part of their message? What has happened since that time that now it is pushed into the forefront of Adventism? Have we strayed so far from the original intent of Christianity?
Elaine
Have we strayed so far from the original intent of Christianity?
****************************
Elaine...
I hear your point of emphasis, but this just sounds a bit strange coming from someone who doesn't believe in nearly anything that biblical Christianity stands for and teaches.
Frank
Frank, Elaine's private beliefs have nothing to do with this thread. Please don't pick fights on the Spectrum website. It would be best, Elaine, if you would not respond to Frank here and if, in general, people would not respond when provoked by other commenters. I leave this up as an example.
Thanks.
Rachel...
Elaine has made her private beliefs very public on many Spectrum threads. I'm not divulging anything that she already hasn't. I was simply commenting on the odd dichotomy between the above and the general tenor of her comments and openly stated beliefs.
I have no desire to fight. Just an observation on something that is already very public.
Thanks...
Frank
Mr. Schreven, I've been thinking and praying about this. I never like to leave things like this on a divisive note (though I'm afraid I often do). I think you are a gifted, called teacher. The things I said were not meant to be some kind of global condemnation of you and your calling, or even your methods. I didn't intend to be gratuitously hurtful, just expressive of how things actually affected me, which somehow gives me a sense of hopefulness in the welter of chaotic memories. But it feels unsatisfying, incomplete.
What sticks in my mind is that you said you had to laugh and cry at some of the responses here. I'm weighing whether you might have meant that literally.
I want to believe you did cry; I want that to be a window into your humanness for me, because you very literally did make me cry and go into a helpless stress state that night in Tyler, Texas. I know you didn't mean to. I know you must have had very understandable human reasons for expressing a moment's irritation the way you did. I know that just walking in the doors of that church where I'd experienced so much pain put my physiology at high arousal, thus putting your irritation and my vulnerability, and tenderness for my friend, on a crash course.
What I'm going to say, I'll say without any expectations of your response, or even any expectations that you'll be reading this. Sometimes you just say things because you must, you know?
I honor your grand vision for sharing the heart-rest of the Sabbath with the world. Surely that is of God. I honor the freedom God has given you to express your vision in ways that are meaningful to your own heart, and perhaps the hearts of 144,000 others! :) I honor the sanctity of your relationship with God, which is forever only between you and Him. I ask your forgiveness for not honoring that boundary. How can I know what God has called you to do?
When I 'zoom out' sufficiently, I see that our heart's visions are not so incompatible, perhaps are complimentary, really. The hope of the world is for all of us to enter into that rest in the heart of God, and both of us long to see that happen, in our own ways.
Your passion and calling is evangelism, mine is more on the distaff side of life. You want all the prodigals to run home; I want them to run home too, but wonder how you expect them to be fed. I worry, realistically I think, about them being in a worse estate after being adopted into the very dysfunctional Adventist family than they ever were before. (Why I should even worry about any of this is an open question...but the thought of other families going through what mine has is very painful for me.)
A very pivotal Scripture for me is Proverbs 24:3....
By wisdom a house is built, and through understanding it is established.
I can unequivocally say that I have failed miserably, and, it seems, irretrievably, in the wisdom/understanding house-building project, but that doesn't keep me from thinking about it night and day.
What does it take? What does it take?
The doctrinal ducks in a row & everyone lined up in authoritarian order? The correct hermeneutical method? Will power? Prayer power? Surrender? Education? Being liberal? Being conservative? The right Spiritual Stage of Development? The right Moral Stage of Development? The right GC president? Reformation? Seeking the Latter Rain? The right diet? The right seminar? Poring over the Red Books? Getting rid of the Red Books? Downsizing the bureaucracy? 1888? Schism?
Always in the background..."Is the whole Adventist adventure a bust?"
If your ad brought three million people into your church, what would happen to them? That's a big refugee camp.
I just keep returning to our visions, our physiologies, the Health Message, and the Sabbath rest.
Did you really cry about what we said? If you did, I’m so sorry. I really cried about what you said. I paced the sidewalk outside the Tyler church, held my sides and sobbed.
What’s to be done? Must these things always separate us, or can they unite us?
Must we always barricade ourselves against the hurts others inflict on us, or is there a better Way?
Is the Sabbath rest a Law? An ideal? A day? A Park in Time? Part of our physiology? How the Body of Christ functions? Heart union with God? The dynamic of our personal healing and the Restoration of All Things? All of the above?
Where do we start to enter that rest?
For me, I have to start in my own physiology. I have to let God calm me down, disperse the cortisol, get some oxytocin flowing, start to get me out of my unregulated stress state.
Oops…I just thought about the Super Bowl...and stirring up a nest of angry Protestants…and Catholics…and College Football Fans...and the spectacle of three million Bedraggled People milling around in a refugee camp...and…drat…there went every last drop of my oxytocin.
Breathe…breathe…let Mr. Schreven do his thing, be on his side…God is in His heaven…rest…Sabbath rest....
Social support and oxytocin interact to suppress cortisol
and subjective responses to psychosocial stress
http://www.oxytocin.org/oxy/socialsupport.html
"If your ad brought three million people into your church, what would happen to them?"
Maggie, this is a powerful question. Thank you for your heartfelt response. I don't know if Leo is reading these comments, but I do hope so. I would be very interested in his response to what you've just asked.
Rachel,
I really appreciated your comments.
Leo,
I have attended your seminars and for what it's worth, it's not that you are passionate about the Sabbath that for me is bothersome. I mean, it's wonderful to hear someone share why they believe what they believe - refreshing even. Where I think things get sticky is when personal convictions are presented as the end-all truth and then laid alongside a colorful myriad of differing persuasions and then pronounced as esteemed and holy, compared to all else. It's the old trap of dualistic thinking (i.e. right vs wrong, good vs evil, light vs dark, sheep vs goats, wheat vs tares etc) that corners our souls and holds them hostage.
I cannot think of one person who would not just wish for respect of their personal faith instead of being compared/weighed and found wanting.
Personally, I have experienced my own private trial of being weighed and coming up short according to someone else's ideals and frankly, it was one of the most brutal experiences of my life. In fact, it almost did me in. Personal ministry work was not anything close to what I imagined it to be. Living in the world among what some would label "heathen" was a cake walk.
Ironically, what I believed must have been a curse was transformed to the blessing that helped me pull myself from the SDA heap of confusion - I experienced a spiritual disentanglement, if you will. I no longer identify with the SDA church's doctrines and practices except the one idea that Jesus is God. I just don't see much importance in anything but that one belief. I also don't believe in taking pot shots at it (the SDa church) though, or any church or religion. To each his own.
As for your Superbowl endeavor - I do not much care for the idea of your portrayal of Jesus. The God Man I know does not take sides - and would never take a pot shot at his children who worship him in love and admiration on Sunday or any other day for that matter.
Why must you choose a concept that chops down your brother in order for you to appear to stand taller? Let your love for God and all that that entails stand on it's own. People are not stupid - they will see the "dig" and be either turned OFF completely or turned ON for all the wrong reasons. The athletic rancor already has enough "let's beat 'em down cause we are better!" as it is. Sure you wanna dovetail off that one?
This entire emphasis that God loves or treasures or favors human beings based on "what they do on what day they do it and how they do it" does not fly with me anymore. I do not buy it and neither do thousands upon thousands of other people.
I've never been more grateful.
Ps I believe the animosity here is less about Leo and more about intelligent thinking Xtians who are fed up with the old status quo. I think this sort of anger is something worth looking at instead of writing it off as just a chip on the shoulder.
I'm relieved to see people standing up for independant thinking and protesting the old tired system that has no idea it is standing on it's own grave and being lowered (finally) into its dusty bed. I do not like the cheap shots though - no need to hit below the belt and yet, I understand why some do it. It is years of pain and frustration coming out all side-ways. We've all done it at some point or another.
Thanks for sharing S.Belmonte! What bothers me is first that he is using our name to proclaim a message that is not the gospel, but rather something like you said: we are better or "righter". Even if he don't uses our name in the ad, most people will know the connection.
Second, it bothers me that apart from Leo the SDA church also sends this kind of message without realizing.
Third, it bothers me that the principle "think big" is misused in that way. Thinking big still requires thinking. One is not automatically a visionaire by just making up extremly expensive plans. If I started to collect money for a project to send sb on the moon and write in big letters SABBATH or something like that, so that a good teleskope would find it.. this would be an expensive but also a stupid vision. Not everything that is big is automatically intelligent or even true.
The spirit of this You Tube video from Southern would be much more fun to do for the Superbowl ad. I'm not saying doing exactly this sharing the spirit of it!
http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/2011/02/14/sau-president-gets-extre...
Marianne,
For every message that touts God as an arbitrary judge who divvies up his family into puny categories, there is a deluge of messages that teach non-violence, love, compassion, empathy and tolerance toward all humanity.
I strongly believe this message of peace will never be muscled out - not even by a commercial of Super Bowl proportions.
;-)
Very nice story. I am here today because of the Ministry of Leo. I actually did like his rapid speaking. As a child I spoke rapid too and was really made to feel very odd. At the same time I was never told the value or showed how to properly modulate my speech. God is good though, I did not get too discouraged cause today I am a public speaker. I sometimes speak too rapid (as in speak before my brain is fully egaged) and make horrible mistakes but I try my very best to be kind and always courteous to everyone. The gospel is about truth-- (the sabbath etc) but the gospel is also about the life of Christ. Unfortunately most Adventist are VERSED on truth but not so versed on the verses of Christ ( 1 Peter 3:15, Colossians 4:6). I hope this will change, beginning with me. Leo fast speaking engaged my mind 12 years ago in Honolulu, Hawaii. I needed Jesus because being in the military at the time as a young private was not making me a BETTER person. Thanks Leo and I hope that your desires come through. I will pray for your efforts everyday, even though truthfully I am a little discouraged by the multiciplity of negative commets. I will go read Ezekiel chapter 2 verse 6 again so I can stay encourage. I really want to see Jesus one day. Help us all Jesus. I love you, help me to love love you more and more.
----Russia
Elaine,
The Sabbath is preached althrough the bible, Genesis 2:1-3 after 6 days of creation God created a special day of rest the 7th day- the Sabbath, Exodus 20: 8-11 It is a day of rest and reflection on God as Creator and Lord, Ezekiel 20:20 The Sabbath is also a sign and a memorial between God and His people. Acts 13:42-44 Paul kept the Sabbath and shared the gospel with jews and gentiles. Jesus preached in the Temple on the Sabbath. The 4th Commandment is the only commandment that begins with Remember and NOT Thou shalt not, and is the seal of God in the last days.
Lyn
.
Lyn,
Yes, Genesis said GOD RESTED on the seventh day. Never did He then give a command to man other than to be fruitful and multiply. Please show the text where God, following Creation, instructed man to observe the seventh day. You will not find it. The very first time the word "Sabbath" is used is in Exodus, a few thousand years later. "God rested because he had finished HIS work; man had done nothing.
Neither will you find one single text prior to Exodus, that any of the patriarchs ever observed sabbath. It was unknown to them until the Decalogue was given to the former slaves from Egypt who had never know a day free from work.
Of course, as good, observant Jews, both Jesus, Paul, and the disciples observed the Sabbath. Yet, when pagans became Christians, there was never a word about the importantce of them observing sabbath. In fact, Paul gave them a few, simple instructions: avoid meat served to idols, blood, and fornication. Again, please furnish a single NT texts instructing CHRISTIANS (not Jews) about a day to be observed. (Hint: you will not find it.) There was a distinct break between Judaism and Christianity. The Jews had hundreds of laws which they meticulously tried to follow. Christianity was made clear and simple: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ; and the majority of Jews turned their back on Jesus. The Jews who became Christians were never given instructions to cease their practices, but at the Jerusalem controversy it was made clear that the new pagan Christians were not made to obey the Jewish rituals, ceremonies, and rues.
Adventism has made a god of the sabbath: it is to be the final test; yet it is not claimed to be necessary for salvation, or is it?
Elaine
The 4th commandment is the heads up for the biggest religious con job/deception on Earth.
For the most part the Jews didn't keep it and for the most part SDA don't keep it either. It is the most hated commandment of the 10 in Christianity. The early carnal church got rid of it as fast as they could, later subsitituting a counterfeit worship day for it. If you bring it up in religious chat rooms, the antinomians will come out of the woodwork with Col 2:16 and label any supporters as cult SDA or legalistic pharisees, etc.
Paul evidently was remiss in ACTS 13:42 and in ACTS 18:4. He should have told the gentiles to run for their lives from any association about study or worship on it. Why did he cave in and have them learn together?
Matthew should have put in a new covenant editing comment on MATT 12:12, MARK on 2:27, Luke on his sabbath comments especially 23:56 and John in chapters 5, 7 and 9,,,,,saying that PAUL had gotten the word , from Jesus,to trash the sabbath ....
Isaiah seems to be a false prophet in IS 66:23 .
Many in the anti sabbatarian church have gotten rid of all 10 commandments and their rules are only in Acts 15, yet so many break those rules
Is Earth a penal colony or what??
Leo, as another new SDA convert from Catholicism, thanks to your meetings, I hope God continues to inspire you with the HOly Spirit to continue to think BIG just like this. I love it and this would put the Sabbath the debate of Monday morning and beyond again. Also, all other ministers will have to deal with this again and come up with their weak explanations. The time is right and now is the time. Run with the ball Leo, all the way to the endzone, by God's grace... To God be all the glory.
Thanks for all the personal time you spent with me Leo, you ministry really inspires me and way you presented the message was real blessing and fresh and as you say it really "blew my mind."
______________________________
-A revival of true godliness among us is the greatest and most urgent of all our needs. To seek this should
be our first work (RH, March 22, 1887).
If I'm not mistaken, the Spirit of Prophecy discouraged Adventists form pushing the Sabbath first. Knowing which day is the Sabbath is worthless without a relationship with Jesus. This ad will just make us look like legalists. Moreover, When asked "what is Sunday for?" Jesus answers, "to watch football." Is that not a bit offensive tot hose who worship God on Sunday? Does the end justify the means?
There is no way Leo can predict 3 million baptisms from one ad. The ad would stir interest, but that doesn't mean 3 million will follow through with joining the church.
Moreover, I doubt the ad would be aired. I'll put my money on other outreach activities.
gkf
The more the merrier, especially if and or when new converts realize they need faith in God; based upon truth and not in men or the ways of them!
I was not raised SDA, but converted as a young adult. I went to Southern and studied Theology. I participated in ministry and helped bring new converts to the church. I left the church a few years after graduation. I did not agonize over the decision. Ten years have passed. I read recently that there was a more liberal form of Adventism and this magazine was a good representation. I read this interview with interest, and the comments following, too. It is conversations like these that convinced me the Adventist church was not for me. I see nothing has changed.
" I read recently that there was a more liberal form of Adventism and this magazine was a good representation. I read this interview with interest, and the comments following, too. It is conversations like these that convinced me the Adventist church was not for me. I see nothing has changed."
Me and my many of my well-educated, social-justice oriented, big-hearted, generous-spirited authenticity-loving, relevance-seeking friends have a similar story.
Yes agree, this is snake in the grass promotion to try and "convert" and "save" lost souls. What a deluded and dangerous organisation and person.
I haven't seen the ad. But, here's my view:
I am an adventist who prayed for my son's epilepsy to be healed. All herbal products could only treat symptoms, not get to the root of the problem. God brought Mannatech into my life. Mannatech products got to the root of the problem.
1) Before you dump Mannatech into a basket with all other MLM businesses, just remember, you don't have all the facts and info about how that company came into being.
2) Abraham was by today's standard's, a millionaire - maybe billionaire...? What about Job?...What about Job after God replenished his losses?
There is nothing wrong with money. It is the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. Because that LOVE is meant to be toward your CREATOR - JESUS CHRIST. So, the problem lies with the heart of the person towards money.
I attended a Mannatech business training session (not Leo's), done by another christian - not adventist. I was impressed by the method / model the speaker presented to run the business, was completely out of harmony with most, nearly all MLMs'. There was no religious content, but the message I received, was to provide the gift of healing & restoration to people, not to worry or think about the business at all. He was so christlike in character, direction, love for people. He was a millionaire who could then give away the products to help people. It made me realise that I had the 28 fundamentals without Christ lifted up. In contrast, I had to have the experience this man was having with Jesus. I found Jesus through this mannatech business meeting. And I find others through doing Mannatech presentations. Praise God for this special company. MannaRelief provides nutritional suppliments to over 170 (I think) orphan homes and other third world countries. May God open your eyes to not judging before you have all the facts.
If Leo wins one soul, or just sows seeds into the minds of the viewers, that will make their decision when the loud cry goes out, it will have all been worth it. After all, Christ spent more than money for one soul - you. He spilled his blood. I don't care how much money is spent. Adventists, you serve a mighty God. It's time to think big! Don't base your views on what you see. God can turn 5 loaves and two fish to feed a multitude. Step out in faith. No-one wants these children that are held in bondage to be freed, more than God. I believe God wants this ad more than you do, more than Leo does.
Lastly, it is better to do something than nothing. Don't forgot the talent that was buried and what the master said about that servant.
I love you, Adventists. But I caution you that point the finger at Leo, to ask yourself, if your spirit is right with God.
Elaine,
Do you love Jesus? Do you believe that he was the one who created the world in six days? Do you believe that he made the sabbath for "man" like he told us in the NT? (My bible says "man" not jews).
And Adam & Eve were not Jews. The Jewish descendants of Judah did not come about till thousands of years later. So the sabbath was created for man(human beings), just like the food was created for man as well. Isaiah 66:22-23 tells us that after Jesus returns, we will still be keeping the Sabbath. Jesus kept the sabbath after he died, by not being raised until Sunday. The GENTILES(NT christians that are not jews) kept the sabbath - Acts 13:42,44. The issue in the end time according to the book of Revelation/Apocolypse, is WORSHIP. One of the last messages sent from God to the inhabitants of the earth is to worship the CREATOR (Jesus) Rev 14:7. How did the creator want us to worship him? He made the Sabbath day for human beings to take time off and remember that we are made from dust, and he is the God that made/created us. The Sabbath sets him apart from all other gods. What did he tell us to do on Sunday? - "six days thou shalt work". So if you keep Sunday holy, you are breaking God's commandments. The people that the antichrist will be angry at, keep the commandments of God, and also believe in Jesus Rev 14:12. i.e. Christians that keep the commandments.
There's one more thing. I know you must still be thinking through all that I've said, that Jesus nailed the Sabbath to the cross. Please read verse 14 on to verse 16 & 17 (Col 2). The Sabbath day"S" (verse 16) that were against us - verses 14 (btw, the sabbath rest day of creation is not "against us", it is "for us", a gift to us for rest) were a "shadow of things to come" which is Christ (these are ceremonial sabbaths, that represented what christ would do in reality when he comes). Once he comes, we no longer have to keep the ceremonial sabbaths any longer. The Sabbath / 7th day that was given at creation was not a ceremonial sabbath day.
The Sabbath / 7th day at creation was written with the finger of God - the only writing that God did not entrust to any human being.
The Sabbath / 7th day was written in stone showing it was to last and not be changed.
And heaven and earth will pass away, but not one dot of an "i" or one stroke of a "t" will be changed of God's holy law.
Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments"
Again, do you love Jesus? Do you love him enough to keep his commandments? Do you love him enough to honour him on the day he chose to be his holy day? And not the day you chose.
Here's a message that could easily have come from Leo;
I AM the greatest, be like me.
Set up goals and you will see.
I'm smart and rich and healthy too.
I know so much more than lowly you.
You are a loser, and I win.
I AM very free from sin.
Buy my books and tapes and learn.
Around, tour life will quickly turn.
Ego? What is that? I say.
You want to teach me? Go away!
I Know so much more than you,
So take my lessons, they are true.
Next week, you'll end up in my church.
You'll find the answers to the search.
God has made me a great soul.
Evangelism is my goal.
Life Coach? Well, Join up and see.
Jesus Christ will make you free.
That Life Coach bit is just a lead.
I'll now use guilt. You made Christ bleed!
Die to self! you say Paul said,
But how can I be great and dead?
Myself is me, it's what I AM.
I AM a star in God's great plan.
Listen in and donate large
And travel on the royal barge.
Float to Heaven, very soon.
It's in the sky, beyond the moon.
I AM the expert, can't you see?
The secret is to be like me.
Just act positive and grow.
Believe all that I say. I know.