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What Dare We Pray?
Our friend Abbey is dying.
If you’d ask anyone in the congregation, they’d tell you that Abbey was the spiritual mother of the church. Not the matriarch, which is another role entirely; Abbey never told everyone else what to do, under threat of her disapproval. She’s been trustworthy, gentle, and altogether kind. Everyone loves her. I suspect she’s done most jobs in the church at one time or another, though people often said that Abbey’s playing the piano was the biggest blessing she gave us. She was a kind mother and faithful wife even in some decidedly difficult circumstances she and her family went through a few years ago. And she was a faithful Seventh-day Adventist believer who, though never taking a sententious tone with others, always practiced herself the teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist church, including the health principles.
A little over a year ago Abbey was diagnosed with cancer. The operation appeared successful. Everyone thanked God, and Abbey was soon blessing us again from the keyboard. But niggling problems remained. Eventually her oncologist broke the news to her: the cancer was back.
Abbey didn’t lose hope, and neither did the church. We visited, took meals, helped any way we could. And of course, everyone prayed. “I know God can heal her,” so many people said. “If there’s anyone who deserves it, it’s Abbey.” I couldn’t but agree, on both counts.
One Sabbath, after the Lord’s Supper, we gathered the whole congregation on our knees around Abbey. People prayed who’d known Abbey their entire lives. Good, godly people. Lifelong friends, whose children had grown up with her children. Young people who’d been taught by her in Sabbath School. People with whom she’d shared countless meals. At the end, I prayed, and passed around a vial of olive oil so everyone could join in the anointing. Abbey’s face was greasy with love! I think we all felt something special that day. A sense of restored hope. People said, “God will answer this prayer. So many people love her. We need her. God will heal her. I know he will.”
Abbey and her husband took an additional step of faith. They drove out to Eden Valley in Colorado, where Abbey received natural cures, the kind that Ellen White recommended. Heat and water treatments, regulated diet and exercise, lots of fresh juices. This was a big sacrifice for them, both physically and financially. Abbey called us a few times from Eden Valley. She said she was feeling better. It felt like the swelling in her abdomen was going down! The news traveled fast through the congregation, and we felt even more hopeful. So many people in that small city knew Abbey and her family, and someone mentioned what a testimony this would be to the truth of our teachings about health and healing.
A couple of weeks later, Abbey called me from the hospital. Her intestines were blocked by tumors. Even then, we didn’t stop praying. Even after the oncologist told her the cancer was advancing rapidly, and she had only weeks to live. People prayed around the clock for her, a special organized prayer vigil. We poured our hearts into it. We were, as the Bible advises us to be, persistent.
Should anyone be tempted to jump in at this point with cynical, clear-eyed realism, please don’t. Resist the temptation to opine about denial. And the others of you, hold off, for the moment, the rehearsed answers: that sometimes God says no, that he knows what’s best for us, that not every prayer is answered. Those all have their place, and some of them may even be true.
Instead, just listen, and try to understand the deep love and sincere faith behind our prayers. We love Abbey, and we trust God. We read in Scripture about Jesus healing people, about God answering prayers. There’s no way around this for the Bible-believing Christian. The Bible says it happened, and that’s where we get our faith that we should pray for it to happen, here and now. Abbey was our Dorcas, and we wanted to see God raise her up again.
I will tell you that this sort of thing comes up often in a pastor’s life, and I’m a pastor who didn’t just fall off the turnip truck. It’s happened so often that I confess I wince a little when I hear us praying for a miracle. I don’t want us to be disappointed. Disappointed in the unanswered prayer, and ultimately disappointed in God. Yet what kind of pastor would I be if I said, “Listen, folks, don’t get your hopes up. God doesn’t bring people back from the edge of death very often”? What about faith to move mountains? Where’s that balance between the kind of unquestioning expectation that brings results—which we’re told repeatedly is the secret to fruitful prayer—and calm acceptance of whatever happens?
So no matter how many times we’re disappointed, we try again.
Yet I must ponder these questions, for every Christian who prays, and for the pastors who pray with and for them. Should we be weighing the realism of our requests, and only praying what seems possible? The Bible tells us to pray big, for God can do more than we can ask or imagine. But it’s my opinion that God doesn’t come through nowadays nearly as often in those kinds of requests as he seemed to in the Bible stories. From the testimonies I hear, God helps people find lost car keys, get a job, do well on a test, even recover from sickness. But the spectacular answers, the kind where people get up from the death bed? It doesn’t happen nearly enough to suit me. And in every case that I know at least one prayer for healing—the last one—is turned down flat, for everyone dies. Even Jesus! The odds are 100% against us.
One of the great rabbis of the past is said to have prayed, in a moment of disillusionment, “We will keep calling you Father until you begin to act like one.” I understand. We can’t stop hoping, we can’t stop believing. So we keep praying. But we wonder: where are the miracles? Perhaps prayer is effective for terminal illness as a tweed coat is for dandruff: palliative, but no solution? There are times when, if I ignore the rest of what Jesus teaches about prayer, I wonder if the only legitimate prayers we can pray are his last ones: “Nevertheless, not my will, but Thine, be done,” and “Father, into Thy hands I commend my Spirit.”
Here’s a blessing: I’ve found that God helps most praying people move from expectation to acceptance once it becomes clear that what we are asking isn’t going to happen. In this situation, it helped that Abbey was beautifully accepting of death—calmer, it seems, than the rest of us. So perhaps it’s my balcony view as a pastor, looking at the whole process with a slightly wider vista, that makes me fear that expecting too much will cause us to crash spiritually—that it may be easier for us to be believers if we expect from God only what might happen anyway.
After Abbey was confined to her home under hospice care, I talked to my congregation about all that had happened. I reminded them of how diligently we’d prayed, the faith we’d invested. It requires great faith to pray for a miracle, I said, yet it takes even more faith to accept, without becoming resentful toward God, that what we wanted isn’t going to happen. I reminded them of Abbey’s own faith, how peaceful she’d been, how unafraid. And of course, that there’s more to life than this life. We’ll see Abbey again.
Yet I still want to know: should we pray for the impossible?
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Interesting.
I don't think God has to answer my prayers, so there is some sort of "cynical" resignation about the entire affair. I am not bitter and faithless, but to be perfectly honest, sometimes I am surprised when God answers my prayer.
Of course I am pleased and grateful too.
Lastly, what does "faith" mean? What are you believing in? God's ability? That's not in doubt. God's willingness to answer as you asked? That's not guaranteed.
Anyways, I have seen God work enough to know that I can turn to Him. I am very comforted by the fact that I can turn to Him and that He will take care of me. Although I am looking for a specific answer, I get great comfort out of merely talking to God about things.
God does not "answer" prayers. God can't be persuaded to do this or that. Petitionary prayer is pontless. What the suffering need is pain relief and consolation.
Pastor Siebold, I believe you got to the crux of the issue when you said, "There are times when, if I ignore the rest of what Jesus teaches about prayer, I wonder if the only legitimate prayers we can pray are his last ones: 'Nevertheless, not my will, but Thine, be done,' and 'Father, into Thy hands I commend my Spirit.'"
Obviously we should pray "for the impossible," because what is impossible for us is possible for God. But what I often feel compelled to pray is that God will overrule everything for good, according to His will, and give those involved the courage and strength to persevere. He sees the big picture, while we see only a small speck of paint (which we too often believe is the whole picture). I take comfort in the promise that in the new earth many of these perplexing tragedies (at least perceived to be so by us) will be explained, and we will see that all things did work together for good.
Hezekiah prayed for healing. God granted it to him. During the extra 15 years he lived, Manasseh was born. He was the worst king Judah ever had. Sometimes it's better when God says no.
I appreciate this article more than most. To answer your final question I would refer you to your final statement, "We’ll see Abbey again." You have written this as a statement of fact, or, if you prefer a statement of faith. Believing the impossible - that we will see Abbey again is a demonstration that you believe the "impossibility" of a resurrection - and that to eternal life, another "impossibility". I am praying that by God's grace I will see Abbey too.
Most prayers seem to be requests for God to do something about something. As much as we would like every sick person to be healed and all pain to go away; and missing kids be found, it's not going to happen. People die, people are in pain, and people go missing; and everyone will die one day if time lasts long enough. We're not telling God anything He doesn't know. And the idea that if more people pray, the more likely it is that God will be persuaded to answer in the positive makes no sense. Does God really need to have His arm twisted to alleviate human suffering ....
As someone said, all we can possibly pray is "Your will be done." And, "God, give me grace to accept it."
Sirje
Yet I still want to know: should we pray for the impossible?
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Isnt the answer in the question?
What is impossible? And to whom?
Here usage of the word "impossible" be definition, means mans understanding, certainly not Gods ability.
But I do like your title. What dare we pray? That point is well taken.
So I suggest it does no harm to pray fervently for the things we desire especially when we pray for others.
The key is that we should make our desires, our perceived solutions and yes, our prayers subservient to Gods will, his greater understanding and his care.
Many people who have never taken the pulpit never learn that many times it is the person speaking that is blessed the most because it is they that have spent the time in study and prayer seeking to have God bless others through their puny efforts.
In the same way as we use prayer more and more to plead for others, it is we who are blessed, we who benefit.
Michael
How about Exodus 25:6 And He said, “If you will give earnest heed to the voice of the LORD your God, and do what is right in His sight, and give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have put on the Egyptians; for I, the LORD, am your healer.”
Secondly, I'm not saying this is the case with the woman mentioned in the article, but if a person spends their whole life living not in accordance with the health and dietary principles given by God, why should we expect God to do a miracle to save them from the consequences of their own decisions? Cancer is very often heavily dependent or significantly influenced by diet and lifestyle, and that's more than just smoking and meat-eating.
Re: How about Exodus 25:6
Maybe a theocracy is different and to us we read this spiritually. These are hard issues Loren and apparently belong in the 'you don't need to know' basket. I believe God gives grace in the most extreme circumstances and quite often it's the sufferer who handles it better than those looking on.
Diseases strike the healthiest Godly people albeit not to the same extent. Cancer can bite anyone on the bum even when they're not sitting on it.
Mostly it's the genes!
My observation after forty two years of pastoral people helping is that not only does God not seem to answer sincere prayer for people who are most deserving and terminally ill - like Abbey. He seems to heal and give another chance at life to those we would consider least deserving and even abusers of the laws of health. I anointed such a person who had a 3% chance of survival according to the doctors, and who with the help of God and the attending Doctors walked out of hospital 10 days later only to spend the next ten years of his life abusing every God given law of healthful living.
Since Cain and Abel the question of God's unfairness remains. Lord I believe help thou my unbelief and I was not there when you called the universe into existence
Pago, I had cancer. I don't smoke and almost never drink. The doctor said that there was no lifestyle choice that made any difference. I just had it and he could not say how I got it. I am now cancer free for over 10 years.
Of course I prayed for healing and cooperated with my doctors in my treatment. But I was also prepared for what might happen if I had not recovered. We pray and trust in God. The next year I went to Lourdes to pray for continued remission and to give thanks.
Dear Loren,
Yes, we should. The impossible still happens...but not all the time.
Education and the technological age we live in tends to make us skeptic. As a pastor I have often been asked to pray for persons diagnosed with life threatening diseases. Often my prayers are in response to the request rather than in the belief God still heals today. In the very first year of my ministry my lead pastor collapsed from a heart attack while riding on a bicycle. His vegan lifestyle was no match for the stresses of pastoral ministry. I remember entering the intensive care unit and seeing his wife whispering to him while resting her head gently on his chest. Later I heard the cardiologist had just told her there was nothing more they could do for him and the monitoring machine was recording am almost straight line. About two hours had passed since he had been brought in after the heart attack which had left him unconscious. But after one more request to revive him, his heart re-started and the very next day he passed a memory test with flying colors. The cardiologist, a confirmed agnostic, declined to take any credit for what he himself called a miracle. Eight weeks later my colleague was back at work and the local newspaper reported on his miraculous recovery with a testimonial from the doctor.
Within a few months of this event I prayed for a young mother who underwent "a routine" surgery. She died. Throughout my ministry I have seen a number being healed from life threatening illnesses, but, it seems to me, the majority suffer and die. Even so, by God's grace, I have kept praying for healing. 2011 was a particularly inspiring year. Two church members suffering from cancer were, in the words of their own physicians (self confessed agnostics), miraculously healed. These good news were the best Xmas present ever.
There are so many questions about prayer in general and prayer and healing in particular. It seems a lot easier to answer questions about Daniel and Revelation than about human suffering, prayer and healing.
So, we should keep praying for healing and for our friends to experience God's presence as they walk through the valley of the shadow of death. The ultimate victory is to exercise faith in adversity.
"Pagophilus," definition: Ice Lover. Such an appropriate alias for someone w/ ice in their veins.
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"Wise advice to a listening ear is like gold earrings or fine jewelry." Proverbs 25:12
These continuing prayers reminds me of what Elijah told the prophets of Baal: "Cry louder, maybe your god doesn't hear you."
The more who pray, the longer there are prayers are inconsequential. No matter how many, no matter how sincere and earnest, we all will die and begging God for a little more life has no apparent effect. Accept the inevitable after taking all the possible medical advice. God has given medical practitioners the ability and knowledge to effect healing. Can anyone offer recognized, objective healing prompted by prayer alone?
Elaine
I don't know if Adventists have anything like it, but Catholics have the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick. The priest anoints the sick person's forehead with oil in the form of a cross, saying: "Through this holy anointing, may the Lord in his love and mercy help you with the grace of the Holy Spirit." He then anoints the hands, saying, "May the Lord who frees you from sin save you and raise you up." We find great comfort in this sacrament.
I, too, had cancer 7 years ago. I have grimaced when I hear the pleas for healing, the all night vigils for this, or that, that would make our human condition more comfortable. The question is: What is it that God promises? What is it that He promises that will always be answered in a way we want? Overall, the Spirit in us giving us peace and strength "through the valley of the shadow of death" is what is promised. Our remaining faithful, trusting, is one of vital importance -- no matter what happens. Our recognizing God, and His Word, as Creator and supreme being of the universe, the Master of our life is where we need to put effort.
I have changed the way I view God after my "incident" and as I get older. God is not a "candyman" that gives us our wants, including health. Although I believe God doesn't mind when we approach Him with trivial things, I really think the purpose of prayer is NOT a list of wishes and wants -- like a Santa Claus. (I been good!) He wants something, and so should we, much deeper than that. He DOES give us the desires of HIS heart, if ours is in line with His will. Again, this does not mean perfect health, because death IS inevitable.... just a matter of when... in fact isn't death a "promise"? I don't want to die, God knows that. I don't want to be sick, God knows that. I want my children to be safe when they travel, God knows that. I don't want the farmer's crops to die which need rain, God knows that. I don't believe, for the most part, that God throws misfortune our way to get us to TURN to Him. What kind of a free-will would that be? How icky would that be? How would you like a friend like that?
I believe it is an act of little faith to beg God for things which bring us more "comfort" and well-being. If it is necessary to beg and plead for days, possibly fasting, before God will answer our wishes only paints God as self-centered and egotistical. Can you imagine a God who sneers, "Well, you didn't ask hard enough"? I am aware of a quote that some things are never given because they are never asked for -- look into the concept of that further before you comment. If that is the statement intended at face value, then that is one "word", not "person", that does not hold up to the test of Scripture. I know God is not like that. His overall desire is for us to be reconciled to Him -- as any loving family would want of its members. Hey, stuff happens no matter how "faithful" you can possibly be... how we react, where we gain strength in good times, not just bad, shows where our hearts are. Maybe we blame God too quickly for misery, viewing it as a test; maybe we also thank God too quickly for stuff that just "happens". And.... Good can come from adversity. I don't want it and I don't like it.... but it will happen so let's deal with it the best way possible.
I don't expect everyone to agree with my viewpoint. But I believe it is necessary to have this viewpoint if you want your image of the character of God to be consistent with one who is kind and loving. Until you go through "the valley of the shadow of death" you may not understand what is truly important in this life and where our efforts of prayer should be. It is not about US and giving US the most comfort possible.. and delivering US here and now. I liked this article and will read it more closely. I will no longer pray, as an Elder, only for healing because there is a much bigger picture and bigger issues than the physical sickness itself.
I have left my "screen name", as I have before when I have posted, I expect to get ripped and discounted because of "who" I am. I suppose it would be OK, for it only exposes the wolves, but these words are for you and I want you to truly listen. It does trouble me that many folks on the forum spend so much time ripping each other and defending "their" truth that God is not being glorified. Things here have not changed in the many years I have infrequently visited this forum. It is time to put away bitterness and move on. Lift up Christ, not yourselves. The superficial "issues" people love to discuss only lead emphatic posters to feel holy or justified. Ok, well enough said.
Remember, WE don't always have to "understand" to trust or believe... In fact, I know I am misunderstood when I put things to words. That is ok, God understands, listens and forgives, then draws me to Him. Can you do that too?
Elaine,
An early job of mine was for a former sda missionary physician who had given his polio vaccine dose to another trusting in the lord for protection. He spent about 20 years with the ability to speak and swallow but needed forced air to breath and full time attendant care. He knew the bible and the promises and was sure he was 'right with the lord' and would be healed if only the ministers and church members who prayed for him were also 'right' in their lives. He would insist to my dad (his pastor), there must be something in my dads life to keep his prayers from being answered. I spent hours with this doctor as he read the bible and sop and criticized the church. Several times I felt I should tell him to get up.... in jesus' name. I never did. Should I have had stronger belief? Or should he have taken his dose of vaccine?
I really tried to believe it. Yours, dl
Fr. Jim...
Adventist practice anointing as outlined in James 5. it speaks of anointing the sick person by the elders of the church, connects it with forgivenss of sin, and that the sick person will be raised up and made well. it connects the spiritual and physical needs of the person who is afflicted.
I've seen some instances where physical healing has taken place. I've seen more where the illness remians, but the person receives a strength and serentity to deal with their circumstances.
It is a bit troubling, because the promise in the text seems so unconditional. But it is even more true that the only certain thing in this life is that we will all pass from the scene...sooner or later.
On the whole,this is a very sensitive topic for me..one that troubles me about the caring and kindness of God. I know the theological arguments and reasons, but they often bring little comfort, and sound like little more than spiritual platitudes to me in times of severe distress.
Thanks...
Frank
Juan said: "I know God is not like that."
How do you know what God is (un)like?
maybe it's the ritualistic nature that brings the comfort, for the most part. Juan, I'm certainly hearing what you are saying, especially about what does this say about the kind of a God are we petitioning. Do we make ritual and faith a human bargaining chip?
So true, Frank.
Loren, thanks for your honesty.
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"Wise advice to a listening ear is like gold earrings or fine jewelry." Proverbs 25:12
read your Bible, Bogdan.... I am not here to argue. Listen to the public... I wouldn't want to serve a God that they "think" they know either.
Thanks Fay. Regards.
'how do you know God is not like that'?
my answer for myself is. and it satisfies me completely, but it may work for others. I know what love is; i know what a despot is. Is it possible to be a God and a despot. I arbitrarily say no. If God does not fit into love, the god has none of my attention. I may not know what all God is, but using love as my measure, I know what God isn't. ..end of story, for me.
Yes, Fay. Unfortunately, some have not experienced an unselfish love... a pure love. Many people come from a background of disappointment and abuse at the hands of others. We have to find who God is through experience, scripture and prayer. And you are right, if the picture we have is not one of "love", then it is not the saving God available to all. It is easier for some to put on the "tough guy" image and be a skeptic and not be disappointed -- again. Problem is we have looked to each other as a measure of "God" -- read the comments after news articles which have elements of "religion" in them. There is a lot of scoffing and bitterness. All eyes heavenward!
I suggest we can't know much of anything about God outside of divine revelation. At best we could surmise God is intelligent, creative, and powerful. Conversations about what God is and isn't within the context of human reasoning alone isn't helpful at all.
I saw Ellen's divine revelation:......far from impressed
Fay said: "using love as my measure, I know what God isn't"
What is love? Is there any religious tradition that offers a god who fits your definition of love? Is there only one religious tradition that "fits the profile"? If you can define love without any god, why do you need a god at all? Knowing "what God isn't" is very useful, but not in determining what God is :)
Juan said: "We have to find who God is through experience, scripture and prayer."
Do we really "have to"? Why? I have followed your exact recipe for decades - have ended up an atheist.
Deliss said: "I suggest we can't know much of anything about God outside of divine revelation."
If you accept anything as revelation through faith, you still can't know anything about God. It's called petitio principii - you assume God is talking to you and then claim to know him. The spaghetti monster appeared to me in a dream. Do you want to know what he is like?
Fay,
So you think she received divine revelation and you're just no impressed? or your not impressed so it must not be divine revelation.
The Bible is the final authority on God. Without it, everything regarding God is relative.
"The Bible is the final authority on God. Without it, everything regarding God is relative."
You can hardly find a more schismatic religion than Christianity. God is "most relative" with the Bible.
Loren,
Very good article, we need to be open and honest about this issue. My parents were both nurses so they shared the same struggle when it came to expecting miracles. They always acknowledged the possibility of miracles, but with the qualification that often or usually God does not answer prayers in that way. Ultimately I think we need to gently nudge people from seeing prayer as task oriented toward viewing it as relationship oriented. As such, there are no right answers to your question. We are right to express hope in the impossible when we are blessed with such hope, we are right to express despair when we are in despair, anger when angry, and yes doubt when in doubt. We may believe in righteousness by faith, but we have a prayer life that is all about getting things right in our belief and attitudes and expecting certain results based on that. Prayer life needs to become connecting with God where I am at, not earning a connection with God by striking the right balance between acceptance and expectation; I may have neither but I can come "Just as I am..."
Pagophilus and Bogdan you have truly shown that you have no shame. Did this really look like thread to discuss proof-texts for the health message, or get into an intellectual discussion about theism? Fay I appreciate your comments about God's love, but I don't know why you think every thread should go back to debating the merits of Ellen.
Bogdan,
I don't have to assume God is talking to me. I know he speaks to me through his divine revelation the Bible.
Bogdan,
Christians claim to be followers of Christ and thus under the biblical worldview you'd expect them to be under attack the most of any world religion. It would be Satan's aim to distort, destroy, misguide, misrepresent, and split Christianity up as much as possible. What you say about Christianity is true to a large extent, but it also illustrates the veracity of the Bible. Because of the Bible says, I would expect Christians to be such circumstances.
Deliss...i'm saying that her revelations of God are abhorring to me. When you read all the whisperings that God did in Elleln's ear about what people were even saying in the privacy of homes. Her scathing chastizement of individual people, which she claimed came from direct revelation. These were sometimes even printed out before the accused was told. I've even heard people say on this forum that reading the testimonies is as uplifting as reading the Bible. I have no interest in a god of these low scruples; I don't care who he revealed himself to or how divine he claims to be. This is a far stretch from love. When I go outside and gaze at the cosmos, I do not see a petty, egotistical, self-serving God, but i see it in a lot of religious notions, that are claimed to be divine
Fay,
You said, "When I go outside and gaze at the cosmos, I do not see a petty, egotistical, self-serving God."
I agree. There is absolutely no way you can observe such a god looking at nature. You couldn't even determine a loving God from looking at the cosmos.
JM said: "Bogdan you have truly shown that you have no shame. Did this really look like thread to... get into an intellectual discussion about theism?"
Indeed, it's shameful to "get into an intellectual discussion about theism" when this is a thread dedicated to how we talk to God, irrespective of whether there is a god to talk to.
Abbey died today at about 12:45 PM.
If belief in the absence of evidence is acceptable, acting on that belief (as in prayer, for instance) is irrational. I can't know if the spaghetti monster exists, but I'll pray to him anyway.
"Abbey died today at about 12:45 PM."
Sorry to hear.
She had the hope of the resurrection. Now she can sleep in peace until that day.
God always gives us something to rest our faith on. He doesn't ask us to believe anything blindly.
"I don't have to assume God is talking to me. I know he speaks to me through his divine revelation the Bible."
Yes, you have to assume. If you knew, everyone else in the world would know too.
"God always gives us something to rest our faith on."
Apparently, so do Allah, Vishnu and a host of others.
John Mark, it is an appropriate thread to talk about the health message. Because if we expect to disobey God throughout our lives and then suffer the consequences and pray to God "I'm dying, please heal me", that isn't the purpose of prayer nor of God. God is not there as a quick fix or an insurance policy to protect us from ourselves. We are here to reflect God to those who don't know him yet, and an unhealthy person doesn't do that very well, especially one who is unhealthy by choice.
Fr Jim - that's all very well, but id your doctort understand the health message? Many doctors are seriously deficient in the knowledge of nutrition and lifestyle matters. And most in the USA actually have no idea what constitutes a healthy diet. (Have you watched Forks over Knives or read The China Study?)
Bogdan this is the thoughts of a Christian pastor posted in a Christian community journaling the real human struggle we face in the hour of death. It's a post about a real woman, a real pastor, and a real Christian community, struggling with the real struggles of life and death. I am absolutely astonished that you would see this as the time and place for a philosophical Richard Dawkins type discussion about the existence of God. Yes this is a Christian community so yes we assume God. It's not about whether you're logically right, and it's that no-one with in a decent society would find this occasion the time for such a discussion. I am appalled.
Loren my condolences, my prayers are with your congregation.
my condolences also....probably every congregation goes through this. This comes very close to home for me, several times; none of us are immune. These are age old questions, no closer to the answer
JM,
Do I seem callous to "the real human struggle"? Isn't the question of God's existence, precisely in a conversation about the meaning of prayer, a "real human struggle"? It is where I at least approach the problem. Can you respect my struggle? I am not Dawkins. I'm a fourth generation Adventist turned atheist primarily through an ardous study of the Bible. Assumption is sooo not enough, especially in the face of death. All this groundless talk of God and prayer and resurrection is precisely a diminishment of "the real human struggle".
Thank-you, John Mark, for capturing & expressing so well the situation.
I'm appalled also w/ the at arm's length discussions, including Pago's anti-Gospel emphasis on a tit-for-tat God.
My prayers for all who loved Abbey, & the many in similar suffering.
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"Wise advice to a listening ear is like gold earrings or fine jewelry." Proverbs 25:12
BTW, faith is not a virtue. Kindness is.
Yes, you absolutely seem callous, amazingly so. Sure the questions you raise may be legitimate questions, but I fail to see how this is the time and place, just as I fail to see how this is the time and place for Pago's discussion of the health message and fork and knives, or a discussion on Ellen White. Just because something is relevant to a topic does not mean it is appropriate. I would not discuss how to prevent suicide with a family grieving the recent loss of a family to suicide. As to assumption, all I mean is that the assumption should be that yes a Christian blog believes in God, and a post like this is not the time to challenge that. Perhaps it is a cultural thing, and I am the only one offended by all this. Either way I will not discuss it further so as to not encourage it.
If your faith doesn't stand to be challenged especially in the face of death, it's worth nothing.
Bogdan,
Actually, my assumption or axiom is the Bible is the Word of God, thus when I read that he is a personal God who loves me and wants to live with me for eternity and has given me Scripture for my benefit I can know for a certainty he is speaking to me. What is your starting axiom? You obviously assume the Bible is not his divine revelation.
"my assumption or axiom is... thus... I can know for a certainty..."
These are the tools of logic. They ensure your coherence, they don't prove anything in and of themselves. You can be coherently wrong.
"You obviously assume the Bible is not his divine revelation."
No, I don't simply assume the Bible is not divine. I have no reason to believe the Bible is anything else but human. When you assume the Bible is divine, you're also assuming there is such a thing as divinity. An axiom cannot assume another axiom.
That's besides the point, as a matter of fact anybody who would be challenged by your "would be" arguments would indeed have a weak faith. But the weakness or strength of one's faith and stupidity or brilliance of your arguments have nothing to do with the fact that it is incredibly insensitive of you to carry out this conversation at this time on this thread. Especially with this: "Should anyone be tempted to jump in at this point with cynical, clear-eyed realism, please don’t. Resist the temptation to opine about denial." Do you pay for this site? Do you provide tech support for it, or contribute to it in any way? If not don't you think you ought to respect the people who author the blogs particularly when they're being honest about a very real and present crisis? Anyway you seem truly incapable of grasping this, so I will try to step aside.
BTW, your initial formulation - the Bible as "divine revelation" - also assumes that the god you assume exists is communicable to us. There is no obvious connection between the idea of a god and that of revelation. Your certainties about God are based on too many intertwined assumptions.
Pago said: " Cancer is very often heavily dependent or significantly influenced by diet and lifestyle, and that's more than just smoking and meat-eating."
You have completely left out the factor of heredity. This is a factor for folks who otherwise have lived an exemplery lifestyle. You also left out "stress," which compromises the weakest part of the body's systems.
Funeral Blues
Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone,
Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.
Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead
Scribbling on the sky the message She is Dead.
Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves,
Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.
She was my North, my South, my East and West,
My working week and my Sunday rest,
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
I thought that love would last forever: I was wrong.
The stars are not wanted now; put out every one,
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun,
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods;
For nothing now can ever come to any good.
W H Auden
Sincerely for Abbey and those who love her deeply and are now grieving.
Condolences to Abbey's family and your church family. I will be praying for comfort and healing. Also peace.
Bogdan...
You are certainly intelligent, but I must concur with John Mark. You may not intend to come across callously, you may not think you do, but boy, it sure is coming across that way...at least to some of us. You studied your way out of belief. That is your personal journey. Some of us studied our way in. It seems by your style as if your intent is to belittle those of us who are stupid enough to still believe. This is neither the time nor the place.
Thanks...
Frank
"Do you... contribute to it in any way?"
I have written one book review that was published here a year ago. If anyone is being insensitive, it's you.
"It seems by your style as if your intent is to belittle those of us who are stupid enough to still believe."
If you feel belittled, it's not 'cause I'm doing the belittling. I'm simply stating my case with way less forcefulness than any of you.
I must say that this is an area where I am struggling mightily with.
We are told that there are things that God cannot do until we pray, yet we are told to pray that God's will is to be done.
Is an all sovereign God limited to the pleadings of we puny humans to do something? Is He a God of ritualistic formula that we have to make sure we get it right? And what happens if we do get it right and follow all the procedures so God will listen to us and move? They die anyway. Then we are told, well, it must have been God's will.
What?? How does that make any sense?
If God's will is that our loved one is to not be healed and die of cancer, no amount of pleading, begging, petitions, fasting or anointings are going to matter. Yet we are basically saying that we pray so God can answer our prayers, like we control Him by praying and nothing would happen if we don't pray.
Then we have the contradiction with 'God's will be done', of saying that we must have faith that our prayers will be answered and God will work mightily according to our petitions.
Where is the fine line between having the faith to pray for what you want, but submitting to the will of God that He will do whatever He sees fit regardless? And why do we need to pray EVERY day, all the time by dozens of different people, the same prayer? Does God not hear us the first time? Do we need to follow the ritual of praying a dozen times and still have our loved one die? What was the point?? Isn't all that we can do (and frankly should do), is simply to pray one time and say, 'God, you do what you want', and be done with it?
Alexander,
Thank you for sharing the beautiful Auden poem.
Pago, he was an excellent doctor. He was a specialist and he saved my life. Many diseases are not matters of health or diet. If someone smokes and gets lung cancer then yes they may share some responsibility for the disease, but for many that is not the case. We should not generally blame someone for being sick as if they deserved it. If someone has malaria it isn't because they didn't eat their veggies.
Bogdan,
I'm not trying to prove God's existence to you. I'm merely explaining my position. Since we don't have the same starting point the least we could communicate on is whose worldview has the most explanatory power for reality and is not self-refuting. Obviously I would posit that the biblical worldview has more explanatory power for reality and is not self-refuting. You can email me deliss.charo at gmail.com to discuss this further. Otherwise I'll let things settle here. We're completely off topic.
Loren, you have put words to my frequent questions and struggles. I grew up on Uncle Arthur stories, and it wasn't until about 2/3s of my life had passed that I discovered how brutal and difficult life can really be. Since then, I have been struggling with many questions, this one perhaps most.
The best answer I have found is that God loves us unconditionally.
"God loves us unconditionally"
So, it doesn't matter if we pray or not, if we believe in him or not.
"Since we don't have the same starting point..."
The question is precisely why we can't have the same starting point.
If we don't pray for the impossible what can we pray for?
I find my prayers, even for reasonable things, well within the limitless power of God, are often not answered. My selfless prayers are not answered... not with yes, not with no, not with maybe. It shakes the faith.
And so, like a prayer unanswered, I too have no answer... but I still pray, and hope, even in the midst of incredible silence.
"but I still pray, and hope, even in the midst of incredible silence."
Why?
"... Catholics have the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick. ..." - Fr Jim
"Adventist practice anointing..." - Frank7
Fr. Jim, I think it was supposed to say: "Adventists practice annoying"... :):)"
1. Pago, you are a self-righteous schmuck. In light of the touching and heartfelt article by Loren, how despicable to bring up whether Abbey was following the health message, or even implying such thought.
2. Pastor Siebold, thankyou for speaking to my heart. A few years back our dear pastor's wife Cindy (age 46) contracted lung cancer (never smoked a day in her life), and finally succumbed at age 49. During those 3 years, we prayed and prayed and prayed. My son Jason was 6 when she was diagnosed and 9 when she died. Jason prayed for Cindy with the children in Sabbath school... Jason and his classmates and teacher prayed each day for Cindy in our little church school. As Cindy continued to deteriorate the last year, my heart broke each time Jason reminded us during family worship to pray for Cindy.
What did that do to his faith? He didn't understand why Jesus didn't heal her. As a mom I did my best to explain. But as you so succintly put it, sometimes there just aren't any acceptable answers to his little question "Why didn't Jesus heal Cindy?" Since then, when we have prayed for others with cancer, he has asked me, "Do you think God probably won't heal them either?" .......
I am an RN, and I work in critical care. So I tend to lean towards the realistic side that people get sick and die, and while I believe that God has the power to heal, I've accepted the fact He rarely does heal those with terminal illness. And so, I struggle too.
Now, back to Pago. I know a sincere self-conscientious SDA lady who contracted breast cancer. She was vegan, thin, drank water, exercised, did everything perfectly. And she continually derided herself that she was obviously not doing something right, which caused the cancer... oh yes, she is under too much stress. Well DUH!!! That in itself is alot of stress to believe you are guilty of causing the cancer when your lifestyle is nearly perfect. Sure, people who smoke, drink, eat junk, get cancer. And yet Pago, I know this may shock you, but even the best of the health reformers get cancer too. I can't argue that verse from exodus about none of these diseases will fall on you, but neither do I understand it. Because health reformers get sick too.
Well, its late and I'm rambling on and on.
Thankyou again Loren, and hugs to you and your congregation as you all say your goodbyes to Abbey. And Pago, pray for compassion.
Debbie
Working night shift in ICU in north Georgia
Deb,
Your portrayal of your son's experience of prayer is touching and illuminating.
Thanks for the edit, George! :)
Frank
What about the story from northern California where leading Adventists have talked of a resurrection from the dead last year?
I can't argue that verse from exodus about none of these diseases will fall on you, but neither do I understand it. Because health reformers get sick too.
****************************
How about the idea that the diseases in Exodus referred to the plagues? God wouldn't put those on the Israelites if they obeyed him. Seems more contextual then what we have made the text into in Adventism. Leaves off a lot of unnecessary guilt and confusion for some very conscientious people.
Thanks,
Frank
frank7,
Where did the traditional explanation come from?
I have heard the text used to talk about health in general many times.
I just never saw it the way you put it.
I am going to read it in context and see if I agree with you.
(Exodus 15)
Loren
Thank you, your remarks remind me of Philip Yancey's exposition on Prayer. He uses the text: "Be still and know that I am God." He comments that "be still" in the orginal means to vacate.
Prayer is a moment of contemplation, conversation, and petition to an all knowing and all compassionae God. To properly enter into that exchange one must abandon one's ego centricity,yet be honest with God about our condition, our concerns, our desires, and our hopes and fears.
To make his point, Philip Yancey suggests a comparison. If one reduces the Milky Way to the size of the North American Contenient--our solar system would fit into a tea cup. If so, what eletron microscope could even find one human being.
Amazing Grace, God became man and died our death that we might live in His presence for eternity.
I am just eight days past a life threatening bout with pneumonia. We all rejoice that God heard our prayers. But what if at 86 I had not recovered. What blasphemy it would be to say that God did not hear our prayers.
In an ultimate sense, Betty and I know we are part of the "Now Generation". We have exceeded by far our three score years and ten. We love and enjoy each other and our extended family.
We hope to enjoy the life that remains for us. But we are fully content to add: "Thy Will Be Done!" When we sleep, we will be with the giants of Christian history. So we enter prayer as adoring supplicants willing to accept God's will and the nature lot of fallen man--fully aware of the
ressurection power and promise of Jesus our Lord.
We are a part of Abbey's extended family.
Tom Z
"Ultimately I think we need to gently nudge people from seeing prayer as task oriented toward viewing it as relationship oriented."
Yes. I think we'll always struggle with this subject, but perhaps it is time to shift our thinking. Perhaps we're focusing in the wrong places, expecting the wrong things. I've been wondering if we need to begin talking about this mystery in a new way, nudging believers to look again at this supernatural connection.
Some of the questions on prayer posed here mirror my own angst on the subject and I have to confess to having a few books and a file folder filled with clipped articles on prayer. Few have given me any satisfying answers. Am I asking the wrong questions; believing the wrong assumptions about this gift of speaking with the Creator?
I have felt frustrated before a lesson study or church service when prayer requests seem to be a time to simply hear the 'news' about who is sick or dying. We're usually too 'shy' to speak of needing prayer for our spiritual doubts or struggles, so we talk about who has just been diagnosed with some fearsome malady instead.
The ideas that the more people who pray will make a difference to the outcome, that the quality of our faith will affect something, that repeated prayers will force a better result.... they feel more like human ideas than anything God would suggest. I especially cannot understand or even believe the statement I grew up hearing - that God NEEDS us to pray for a certain thing or He will be unable to act on it.
BEC
Juan Arivay, thankyou for your post a ways back. I am very familiar with that popular quote by Ellen that says that many things God longs to give us, if we would merely ask. Today I see it with new eyes. It would be like me having a brand new car for my 16 year old but not giving it to him until he asks for it. Thankyou for your reflections.
Tom Z--- so glad you recovered from pneumonia! We shall enjoy you and your posts as long as we can! What peace and hope you exude. :-)
Debbie
@Loren this was well written thank you for opening up this side of the ministry many do not get a glimpse into. As a minister I also wonder "where are the miracles?" I too do not see them as often as I like. Yet for me I have come to realize that the enormity of the plan of salvation is too big to grasp and my view too limited to know best. Yet I still pray for the impossible although I don't see it happen often because I know I have no other place that I would want to turn too. God alone has the words of life, God alone brings the comfort when we don't see the impossible. In other words I pray for the impossible still because His no's are still better than the worlds yes! For example, I am currently praying for the impossible in this personal manner. My wife and I are praying for healthy, fraternal blued eyed twins and we aren't even pregnant yet. I believe God ask us to be specific and so we are. Impossible? Perhaps, especially when you consider neither of us have blue eyes and twins don't run in our blood line? But I believe God can do it but I am trust Him enough to accept whatever He provides even if we find out for some reason we can't have any.
Once again thank you for this insightful article inside your own thoughts.
Gio
God always answers prayers, even prayers for healing, but not always in the way we think appropriate. Think of ALL the love and adoration toward God that was provided by the group. Think of all the love and adoration that was shared with each other in the congregation and how it drew the members of the congregation together in unity. Perhaps prayers were answered. One thing the local SDA churches do not do is Healing Ministry on a routine weekly or monthly basis. It would be good to have a healing ministry and to open the doors of the church for it and invite members of the community to also be prayed for, not just SDA members behind closed doors. Yes, God does answer prayers for healing, continue the sacrament of Healing.
Pago, I want to apologize for calling you a self righteous schmuck. I guess your post just hit a raw nerve with me. Nevertheless, I shouldn't have called you a schmuck.
Debbie
Loren,
Thank you for opening your heart and sharing what is a present challenge for you and your congregation. Your sensitivity will surely help you all work through this difficult time. Would that all congregations had such a sensitive shepherd.
I have followed this discussion very closely since I have agreed to teach the Sabbath School lesson on the Promise of Prayer coming up in March. Our dilemma in how to relate to an all-powerful Creator has certainly been clearly drawn in the comments here. I am reminded again that it was a dilemma that Gordon Bietz addressed in his article, "Why Do We Pray" http://www.adventistreview.org/2003-1527/story3.html. His conclusion seems difficult and yet I believe it is in the end the only real one that works for me at this time in my life. " Prayer is a way to love: others and God. The bottom line is that after all is said and done, Jesus told us to pray, and so we pray."
I would say, yes, Loren, We should pray for the impossible. Or more clearly it is our privilege to do so. Is that not what Jesus did in the Garden before his death? He knew the cup could not be removed yet He asked. He then submitted to the will of His Father.
Barbara
Trinidad...
I don't know enough about where the traditional interpretation came from. I assume that it is something that originated and grew up within Adventism. Nor have I read what I shared anywhere else. I simply reasoned that the only internal references in Exodus of God putting anything upon the Egyptians was the plagues. I don't see anything about disease or health in general being present within the narrative. That seems more like a reading into the text.
This make sense to me from the context. But, it may not be correct.
Thanks...
Frank
Trinidad...
I did a bit more reading and found in a Torah commentary references to the "dreadful diseases of Egypt," and the "Egyptian inflammation," elsewhere in the Torah. So, there is certainly support for understanding this as something different from the plagues...something more in line with the traditional Adventist understanding.
The issue that I have with this is that it says in all these texts that God is the one who will send all these horrible diseases upon the Israelites if they disobey the Law/Torah, and not that this will simply be a consequence of violating the laws of health as we, Adventists, have typically understood it. While we may take into account the idea that in ancient Hebrew thought, God was responsible for everything (both good and ill, blessing and cursing), the second issue is that this is given as an unconditional promise or threat that is stated as a truism. Obey and you'll be healthy, disobey and you'll die of any and every horrible disease you can imagine.
While that can be seen as a general reality, it just doesn't hold true nearly enough...as evidenced by this thread, and just by life itself. Too many false expectations have been built up, and unnecessary guilt carried by people who have believed this literally to the dotting of the i's and the crossing of the t's.
There needs to be caution. It's why we have books like Job, or Ecclesiastes to counterbalance this type of picture. Time and chance happen to all of us.
Thanks...
Frank
As someone put it to me a year or so ago, the focus on health in the Old Testament was on prevention rather than cure. While the nations around had various practices designed to cure a person, the Israelites had various practices designed to prevent illness occuring.
I read that verse in Exodus and expected it would be based on prevention, but the tail of the verse refers to God as a healer, so I suppose we not talking solely about prevention in OT times.
Whether God heals or not is part of the "mystery" of God.
I was taken aback once when a good friend of mine related a miracle he had observed - an expression of God's presence. An elderly man (a friend) with numerous health problems had been taking a turn towards dying, when he recovered sufficiently to be able to go home, with all the attendant health problems. He received a reprieve, just so he could live another miserable few months (and yes, they were miserable).
I have difficulty in attributing such a "miracle" to God's goodness.
The real miracle is where a person can say, whether they are experiencing good times or bad - Blessed be the name of the Lord.
billman: "The real miracle is where a person can say, whether they are experiencing good times or bad - Blessed be the name of the Lord."
Outstanding....
Do we serve merely because we have been "rewarded", expect a miracle or because of who He is and what He has done to bring us together? I read a quote a while back that said "Unconditional love freely given is not based on the subject's hoped for response". Something like that.
I see friends post things on a social website requesting prayer for every little thing, except for what prayer was intended in the first place.... to see thee more clearly, to love thee more dearly. (should be a song!) To be thankful and know the true God, Blessed BE the name of the Lord.
How many friends do you only talk with when you want something -- I hate that when that happens! Not only are some of our prayers consisting of misguided compassion, they also are painting a picture of God that is not accurate because they leave our children with a shallow view of God's and prayer's purpose. How can they help but see God as not fair and not loving? I'll leave it at that. Some folks will understand and others may never.
Remember the concept of grace.... will our prayers only be answered if someone has put away sin and if we have pleaded long enough in the right way? We may destroy ourselves with our lifestyles but that doesn't make anyone LESS qualified for a miracle. Would God say the same about our sinful, depraved condition? Lord, have mercy.
Juan " to see thee more clearly, to love thee more dearly". (should be a song! it is.) your comments are copyrighted. It is a song by George Harrison, disputed by law as a copy tune *plagiarism"..does THAT ring a bell?? of ":My Sweet Lord"...played out in court in the 70's by the Chiffons writer of "He's So Fine" The writer won and got $$$$. How do you deal with that in SDAism? Who gets the money?Just a wonderin by the stove....
literally LOL!
It's not George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord." It's day by Day from Godspell. Juan is plagiarizing a Broadway play...not a former Beatle who plagiarized the Chiffons. Not that we know anything about this in SDAism! :)
Thanks...
Frank
Actually, it is a desire of my heart... timeless and irrelevant of any existing trademarks! Just having fun with it..... Also, "Blessed Be the Name" is also a popular song. I sincerely hope we can never be forced to never utter phrases that have not been used before.... or we would be silent!
Billman, I completely agree.
A family I know was heartbroken when the wayward son was diagnosed w/ cancer. He came home & on his death bed, repented. The family prayed for healing, & a miracle happened. He lived another fifteen years, unfortunately, in his previous lifestyle which included repeated attempts to manipulate & take advantage of his family.
This & similar stories remind us that even a miracle healing does not save anyone forever. Only a reprieve. We all suffer from the curse, "you shall die."
If, as Pagophilus emphasizes, illness is the consequence of poor choices, what consequence is the "good person" dying from? Nobody--not even the most rigorous Adventist--dies of good health.
More than a few Adventists believe that they are somehow protected from serious illness & even crime. I've heard tragic bewilderment expressed at how a beloved evangelist could possibly have cancer, or how an Adventist girl could be murdered.
It looks like we don't always do a very good job in promoting spiritual maturity. Maybe because nuanced expressions of faith don't sound as fervent & certain as the all-or-nothing ones.
____________________________________________________
"Wise advice to a listening ear is like gold earrings or fine jewelry." Proverbs 25:12
I don't have time or the presence of mind to read all of the comments. Sitting by my mother's bedside is overwhelming and it took me two days to finally actually read this article with comprehension. You expressed what most of us are thinking and struggling with at times like these.
There are so many dynamics and relationships and events that intersect with a life that is fading away. There is pain and unresolved hurts, regrets. And often these have to do with those of us surrounding the person who is ill. God often has already prepared that person for this time, but the rest of us are not always ready.
Having watched my father go through a very similar illness before his death in 1999, I did not come to this time totally unprepared. Yet I feel unprepared. The Lord will give us 1,000 years to get over the pain of this life, so how can we expect to handle loss without crushing pain? We weren't built for this, and we can't do it without his helping hand.
And, of course, I am praying for a miracle--for multiple miracles. I'm praying God will destroy the tumor in her lung. I'm praying He will strengthen her bones and heal the compression fractures in her spine that are causing her so much pain. And I'm praying that she will re-gain her independence and that she will be given another ten years to enjoy her grandchildren, and even get to know her great-granddaughter--my first grandchild, little 9 month old Jazlyn.
But I'll accept His will, whatever it is. But, Lord, if that's so, at least give her enough time for everyone to make it to Connecticut to see her while she is lucid, and let her meet, touch, and be smiled at by little Jazlyn. Help her learn to trust you before she leaves us. And I pray everyone comes to a place of peace about whatever your will is.
Having just lost a parent, and having another who is very sick, and dealing with all the dynamics you spoke of, I can so relate Christiane. Sometimes, I just don't even know what to pray in these situations anymore. I can only rely on the fact that the Bible says the same..and promises that the Spirit will intercede when I can't even speak intelligibly, or even know what to say.
Thanks for your touching honesty and openness...
Frank
Thank you, Christiane, for sharing. Notes like that make the painful process of writing a piece like this worthwhile.
So often people show up here to complain that everything on the Spectrum website is critical, cynical and about controversy—and there's surely some of that. But I see that there's also a great deal of spiritual care and genuine spiritual searching and community that is generated here, too. So just want to add my thanks to those of the Spectrum community, and especially the folks like Rich, Alex, and others who keep this site operating.
Loren
Loren, my prayers are with you and Abby's family (church family too). As pastors we need to be there to listen to the "Why?" I don't know the mind of God. I can't speak for God, though Job has helped a lot over the years to those navel gazing, self-doubting, God questioning times. See, I also struggle with the question of (un)answered prayers. I've had immediate "yes" answer to prayers for healing for others. And when I was diagnosed with both kidney cancer and lung cancer at the same time, God healed me. I am thankful for the healing. What I don't understand is that when the retired pastor joined my elders in the prayer of annointing. He faked it. He prayed but never annointed me. The next day the ________ of my former conference annointed me. He wasn't interested in doing it, but did it because of others wanting to do it for me. That day all the cancers dissapeared. I thank God for my healing. Not much later I was asked to pray for a retired pastor, and friend, annointing with oil for one of the same cancers I had had. Six months later he died. Why? I don't know. I've laid hands on members and seen them healed, annointed and seen them healed. And sometimes, He says no. Why? Maybe that is the wrong question. Maybe in fact it is about Who after all. Guess I better go back and read Job again. Hang in there my friend. Funeral this week. Funeral next week. More soon to happen. May the peace of Jesus be with you... Michael
Faith is Trust in God (His love and His wisdom) so, let's pray and ask Him to answer our pray doing His will.
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