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The Mormon Moment
Recently I watched an interview with the polished and handsome Mitt Romney. He’ll quite possibly be the nominee for his party next year, and even if he isn’t, he’ll have left a big footprint on the American political landscape. I don’t like everything he stands for (if you can figure out what that is), but he’s clearly smart and pragmatic and, from what I can tell, at least as moral as some of the previous inhabitants of that office.
And he’s a Mormon.
Most of what I know about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints seems bizarre to me. A prophet of questionable reputation. Mysterious golden plates “translated” into the odd New World-centric Book of Mormon. Masonic-like secret ceremonies in Disneyland castles. Special underwear. Baptism for dead people whose names are mined from extensive genealogical archives. Marriage as a metaphor for the Godhead. An afterlife where Mormon men are elevated to deity by a God who, as I heard one Mormon say, wants to surround Himself with peers.
Yet the actual Mormons I know, or know about, aren’t bizarre. Let’s not judge them by the desert mobile home compounds filled with child brides (do you like it when people judge us by David Koresh?) and look instead at the ordinary Mormons you meet in business and see on television. Mormons have done well, at least in the United States—and that in spite of ongoing embarrassing publicity about the strange behaviors at their fringes. They have good marriages and families, help others, are generally honest business people and hard workers.
There’s no direct link between our two faiths[1]—Joseph Smith died the same year as The Great Disappointment—yet Mormons and Seventh-day Adventists have much in common beyond our long, adjective-clogged names and three-letter abbreviations. We come from the same religious impulse in American frontier faith.
Both denominations originated in the “burned over” district (so called because of the many religious movements arising there during the Second Great Awakening) of western and central New York state, among people who felt alienated from the educated Presbyterian and Episcopalian establishment of the East. (Hill Cumorah, Hiram Edson’s farm, and the Fox sisters’ home are within a 15 minute drive of one another). Both faiths are restorationist, meaning that we were willing set aside 1800 years of theological development in favor of reliance on the Bible and contemporary prophetic gifts, toward the goal of creating a new, true religion that God would recognize to the exclusion of all the others. Both groups adopted doctrines and lifestyles that segregated us from our communities, the Mormons going so far as to establish their own state in the American West. Both embraced healthful lifestyle innovations and conservative Christian behaviors. Both are determinedly evangelistic. Both are eschatological movements, though we Seventh-day Adventists have tended to be, ironically, more pessimistic and fearful than Mormons.
Ironic because while Seventh-day Adventists have talked a lot about being persecuted, instances of it have been rare. The Mormons suffered real persecution, mostly because of polygamy, until they were able to establish their Zion in Utah. Their history is more mysterious and tragic than ours: believers hounded from place to place, crossing the Rockies with handcarts, a new city carved out of the desert, factional rivalries ending in massacres and gunfights. As we Seventh-day Adventists have moved in the direction of Evangelical Christianity (much to the concern of some, who prefer we remain sectarian—the objection to Questions on Doctrine was that our scholars watered down distinctive pioneer doctrines in order to appease Evangelical leaders who wanted to label us a “cult”), Mormonism reveled in the strange doctrine of a married God who created people so they (men, at least) can ultimately become gods over their own planets. While we invested in denominational governance, professional clergy, multiple schools, colleges and health-care institutions, Mormons called all laymen priests, made the church lay led (in practice it tends to be plutocratic), established one big university, and built some of the most fanciful and attention-getting houses of worship in the world. While our evangelism is popularly known for Biblical monsters and predictions of doom, theirs is associated with smiling, clean-cut young men in white shirts.
In some respects Mormons have maintained their sectarianism better than we have: their scholars have been less willing to explain themselves to other Christians than ours have, and clustered as they had long been in a few Western states, hadn’t (until recently) needed to. Yet they’ve accommodated the surrounding culture when necessary, such as suspending polygamy and allowing blacks into their priesthood.
In spite of their oddness—or perhaps because of it—they’re better known than we are. All current studies show that whereas relatively few in our communities know who Seventh-day Adventists are, almost everyone knows who the Mormons are, especially now that two of them are running for President and legislative leaders like Orrin Hatch and Harry Reid are often in the news. Add to that well-known authors like Orson Scott Card, Stephanie Meyer (Twilight), Steven Covey, dozens of athletes, doctors, scientists and industrialists, a Book of Mormon play on broadway, and “Big Love” on television. And, they do nice image-building advertising.
Like us, they’ve been an insular community whose culture isn’t easily understood from the outside. And, like us, some of them question the veracity of their founding stories and documents, and resent the protective, conservative leadership of their church. This came home to me when listening to an episode of NPR’s “Being” in which Krista Tippett interviews Mormon scholar and journalist Joanna Brooks. Brooks speaks candidly of the insecurities and doubts that Mormons have about their distinctive identity. While they’re proud of their achievements, she says this is a “white-knuckle moment” for aware Mormons, who fear what people will say about them next—especially since some of it is true, such as that polygamy, though suspended, is still technically Mormon doctrine.
I’m struggling to know what to think about the so-called Mormon Moment. I have always thought it astonishingly arrogant that Martin and Barnhouse et al. defined the word “cult” and then threatened other groups with it. Having had the word used on me a few times, I see little advantage to pinning it on someone else. Mormon doctrine is weird, to be sure, but I know my own denomination’s feet of clay too well to feel good about stomping on another’s toes. And I have to admit that as far as influencing culture, Mormons have done wonderfully well at getting around the movement’s dodgy past and odd beliefs and succeeding on their own terms. Better than we have.
I’m a little jealous, actually. I wonder why there’s not been an Adventist Moment. We’ve had our small recognitions by the larger culture: a year or two around the time of Baby Fae (though it was mostly LLU and Dr. Bailey, not the church, that got the attention), Paul Harvey mentioning us occasionally, a few politicians and entertainers. We’re better known in the African-American community than elsewhere, and have more important people in government in Africa and the Caribbean than here, too. Here, we appear mostly concerned with keeping our denominational machinery running and our institutions alive. But as for interacting with American culture, for good or ill, we’ve been sidelined.
One reason may be that the judgment of our church appears to fall more heavily on our achievers than happens in the LDS church. I was always amazed that people as conservative as Mormons could put up with the Osmond family in spite of their being entertainers, with all the lifestyle compromises that implies. Adventists are interested in our few celebrities, but we’re suspicious of them, too. Actor Clifton Davis and Congressman Jerry Pettis were much criticized because they didn’t behave as Adventisty as some thought they should have, and most of us won’t even claim Little Richard. We tend to value personal piety over societal recognition, even if that means sacrificing achievement. It’s a rare celebrity—Dr. Ben Carson comes to mind—who can stay among us without being fired upon. Our heroes, like Eric Liddell in Chariots of Fire, are those who don’t do things for the sake of principle.
If we did have a Seventh-day Adventist candidate for president, what questions would arise? I can imagine our people asking, “Will he work on Sabbath?” “Will he close government offices on Sabbath?” “Will he let alcohol and pork be served at state dinners?” Outsiders might ask whether a person who believes that the world is on the verge of destruction over which is the right day to go to church, and that Roman Catholics are set to persecute him, can be trusted to make good judgements with the machinery of government.
Could we stand a Mormon president? We may find out. I do hope we’d behave better than we did back in 1960 when we got our first Roman Catholic president.
[1] I find the theory that Ellen White copied from Smith too weak to be taken seriously.
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The Constitution forbids any religious test for holding office. I do think religion matters because it reflects some of the deeply held beliefs of a candidate. I will judge Mitt by his record and his stated policies and goals. I am not afraid to have a Mormon in the White House, although almost anyone would be better then the current occupant imho.
That said my take on Mormonism is that it is becoming another religion. Philip Jenkin's influenced me on this. It's theology is far more removed from mainstream Christianity then the SDA's. Their movement away from monotheism puts them on the fringe. Recently we ruled that their baptisms were invalid (we accept SDA baptisms). Of course they rebaptize anyone who joins them, so they couldn't complain much. It will be interesting to see what happens as they grow larger and their expansion brings them into closer theological contact with mainstream Christianity.
"The Mormons suffered real persecution, mostly because of polygamy, until they were able to establish their Zion in Utah."
Well, that's an oversimplification. Everywhere they went, they established a theocracy. Joseph Smith had thugs, the "Danites" and the "Nauvoo Legion," going after his enemies. They torched a newspaper that printed things he didn't like--this led to his arrest and death at the hands of a mob. They went to Utah to establish their theocratic "Deseret" away from others. The history of the LDS Church is clear in these areas. I think questions of Romney, a former bishop and stake president, on this are fair--just as questions regarding religious issues were fair when Pat Robertson ran, or Jesse Jackson. The equivalent is not to JFK running ... it would be similar to if a Catholic priest or bishop ran for president, and refused to answer questions about his faith, and how it informed him.
Enjoyed your article. Regarding your footnote, I too have found the theory that Ellen White copied from Smith weak. Your link takes us to J. Mark Martin's SDA Outreach. He sent me some of his raw material sometime in 1998 or '99 regarding this. We hear of a forthcoming book which never comes out. I organized the material he sent me and those interesed in it can contact me for a pdf of it.
My take on Mormonism is it is a serious role-playing game
The adherents I have known make no attempt to verify that their weird history model lines up with reality. Instead you just put them into two completely independent buckets and ignore their incompatibilities.
Instead the adherents put a huge emphasis on being a member of the society with all its benefits. The FUN of being a Mormon, the pleasant experience of being in the game.
Happy SDA similarly ignore the theological and scientific nonsense, and enjoy being a member.
In both denominations, people who can't ignore it are very uncomfortable. In the LDS, I suspect they separate quickly and cleanly because the theology and science are so obviously nonsense. In the SDA case, there is enough good theology that differs from the surrounding Christian denominations, separation is harder.
Read "A Gathering Of Saints" for a fascinating look at how all this plays out
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_3_13?url=search-alias%3Dstripbook...
/Bevin
The big difference between Mormonism and Adventism is that Latter Day Saints early on established mini states and eventually a real state and took on the responsibilities of governing while Adventists used their energy on getting ready for the Second Coming. Mormonism has a civic dimension that Adventism lacks. Adventists have shrunk from public service for fear of compromising their lifestyle taboos and their digestion, while Momons have viewed public service as a challenge.
Mormonism is the ultimate American religion, full of optimism ("you too can become a deity"), universalism (cranky Uncle Joe can get saved after death through baptism for the dead), American exceptionalism (the only place Jesus ever visited outside of Palestine was here), and Flanders-like family values. Adventism, with its gloomy pietism (the Testimonies) and its vestigial Torah, and apocalypticism can't compete--at least they haven't been able to, so far. Mormonism is American, Adventism is Reformational European.
Aage
Why no mention of our own limousine liberal Shirley Jackson Lee (U.S. Represantative from Texas). Wouldn't your final questions be answered by her. I know she often makes me proud...well proud I am not someone that elected her.
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_sda.html
Adventist Media and Conversation Blog
Her name is SHEILA Jackson Lee, and she says so little about her Adventist faith that few Adventists in Houston realize she is one.
The other dimension that is 99% of living and interacting among Mormons is their very closed societies. In Utah where the natural tendencies run to their limits because they can, a Mormon is forced to live and act in certain ways because their jobs and family relationships depend on it.
If a Mormon joins a different faith he might as well leave Utah. Family disowns them, fired from Jobs etc. Its got a very cultic or Muslim mindset about it as far as practical ramifications go. They are getting much better about presenting a winsome face but those who have left the church have lost their families many times.
If the Ex-SDA Spectrumite thinks they had it bad they have no idea how much worse it would have been had they been former Mormons.
I also know Mormons who have a very Catholic approach to the church. That is to say they do the equivalent of going to church and saying the right things on Easter and Christmas like Catholics do. You would call them Jack Mormons. They seem to get along OK. Even in Utah.
Michael
Michael writes: "If a Mormon joins a different faith he might as well leave Utah. Family disowns them, fired from Jobs etc. Its got a very cultic or Muslim mindset about it as far as practical ramifications go."
This is overstating current reality IMO (and I've lived in UT since 1976). I'm sure this extreme behavior does still occur here but it is much less prevalent than 25-50 years ago.
Depending on the area, those "jack Adventists" are either accepted or totally rejected. The more isolated a church is from others, the more exclusive it usually becomes.
Elaine
"The big difference between Mormonism and Adventism...."
Now, that was brilliant, Aage. :)
I have no problem with Adventist being considered cult-like in certain aspects. It's true!
Utah does not have a School of Dentistry. however, it pays part of a students tuition and other costs at out of state schools, generally private schools. Marquette University generally accepted 10 Mormon students each year. With great regularity they became the top ten in their class. Fr. Mac the Provost of the School of Dentistry, would have an orientation session with the Mormon students. His message was simple and direct: "We are glad you are here, in fact proud. Those that have preceded you have been outstanding students and citizens. I have just one piece of advise: "Leave my Catholic girls alone!"
Later at LLU I taught a number of graduate student of the Mormon faith--they also were excellent graduate students.
16 years in teaching students of the Mormon faith---I have no misgivings about Mitt Romney as President--particularly given the Republican alternatives. Gov. Mitt romney has an excellent history in the private sector and an excellent political record as Governor of Mass. It does puzzle me how men of such intellect can believe in such nonsense as found in the Pearl of Great Price and/or the Book of Mormon. Tom Z
The writer says Mormonism and Adventism have no real connection, this could not be further from the truth. Both religions started in New England only miles apart from one another. Mormons were involved with the Millerite Movement, and after the great disappointment many Millerites joined the Mormon faith.
Ellen White at least copied 2 of her visions straight from Joseph Smith, the narrow path one and her encounter with Enoch.
They believe it - but they don't think it is true.
Just like devote modern Hindu's believe the stuff in the ancient Hindu texts about the god's actions, but don't think it really happened.
It just takes acceptance that this is a role-playing game that is worth the cost
/Bevin
Having recently read several books about FLDS, which mention the quiet acceptance of polygamy in the larger LDS community, and its protection of, or unwillingness to prosecute, those who are guilty of abusing not only young girls, but all women, young boys, and many men, I cannot feel totally sanguine about what is behind the fresh-faced images that appear in their ads.
Still, I agree with you that Mormons, while secretive about their own activities, have been bold in mingling in public and community situations, making them well-known. They are outward, as well as inward, looking. I believe they are even beginning, at some levels, to address their extremely homophobic image.
Adventists, on the other hand, engage in navel-gazing, and are disconnected from the world we live in.
Sir Loren, I've enjoyed the output of your keyboard from time to time. I'll leave it to others here to respond to your content in this article. But let me thank you for presenting one of the better-written pieces I've read in the Adventist media of late. Your word choices and turns of phrase here make reading your post a pleasure. So write on!
Michael, is that like Adventists who go to church on Saturday to get their ticket punched? Your lack of knowledge about Catholicism is scarey. Somehow Catholicism gets brought up even when the article is about a whole other religion. Give it a rest.
I know its a caricature Jim but that doesnt make it less true. All of us have known people of the RCC. I have a a couple dozen friends who are Catholics and they have made jokes about that very thing during many camping trips etc.
It is a societal truism. Comedians all over the country use forms of that Joke and the reason everyone laughs is because they know Catholics like that and it resonates.
I understand your a little sensitive but to deny the truth of this is to be willfully ignorant.
Michael
Tom
A religion is not merely confined to its holy scriptures; the way the religion is practiced is also part of it. Few of us find much good to say about the LDS scriptures, whether it be the bone-dry Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenants (the testimonies of Joseph Smith on which virtually all their doctrines are based) or the bizarre Pearl of Great Price, a falsely translated version of a well-know Egyptian burial manuscript called The Book of Breathings--a book which has brought nothing but embarrassment to the LDS church ever since the original manuscript was rediscovered)--BUT it seems like most of us who have had fairly extensive dealings with Mormons have a very favorable view of them as human beings. Say what you will about their mythology, but Mormonism is high-quality religion when it comes to the way it affects those who embrace it. I would rather have a Mormon for neighbor than a generic fundamentalist Evangelical.
In many ways Adventism and Mormonism have followed a similar path to that of chiropractors and osteopathic practitioners who started as upscale quacks, but who over the years have acquired a great deal of legitimacy by moving towards the medical mainstream. They still hold on to their archaic vocabulary, e.g. "vertebral subluxation complex" and the likes, but they can no longer be called quacks. Mormonism, in the days of Brigham Young, was the Mormonism of the Big Love compounds, with doctrines so bizarre that modern-day Mormons refuse to believe that their church ever taught such things (for instance that Adam was the God of this universe, and the doctrine of the blood atonement, which stated that some people's sins were so grievous that only by shedding their blood could they be saved).
Maggie
I assume your smiley face referred to the word BIG in 'the big difference' between the two religions. I was talking about the big difference when it comes to publicity--that Mormons venture out of their bubble whereas Adventists do not. Outwardly the difference is small. Both groups grew up in the US roughly at the same time, both embraced restorationism (as Loren points out), both saw themselves as God's latter-day church, the beneficiaries of the restored gift of prophecy, both groups embraced the American health-reform movement and both adopted a Roman Catholic hierarchical, undemocratic, male-only power structure. The theology of the two groups is very different, but that is not apparent to casual observers because both groups are like ice bergs when it comes to what they reveal of themselves to outsiders. Mormons, for instance, pass out the boring but rather innocuous Book of Mormon by the thousands, giving everybody the impression that that's their Bible, when in reality their doctrines are found in the book Doctrine and Covenants, which only members know about--somewhat like the Testimonies of EGW, that are meant for 'the Church.' I have been to Mormon church services, and they are hard to tell apart from those of Adventists, with the exception that paid clergy definitely have an edge over the local car dealer when it comes to giving a sermon. The Mormon services I've been to have without exception been insufferably boring.
Aage
Rich,
I have a friend that was Mormon. He told us how he was baptized 600 times over 3 days for the dead. He experienced all of what I suggested and more. He has 2 kids less than 10 years old. He and his wife are under 30. That type of severe shunning is still alive and well and he left Utah because he was in the financial markets and banking and when they found out he was apostate Mormon he was fired. This happened 4 times in 4 different towns. He wonders if it is a coincidence that the local Bishop was the president of the bank in each occasion.
Michael
Why does the beam in our own eye seem so invisible to us, yet so obscuring to others? Oh, for a clearer view! A less self-centric perspective would reflect a more mature 'religion'.
No, Aage, I just thought it was a brilliant comparison. So...I smiled. Nothing ironic or sarcastic at all.
I think your further comparison in your last post is brilliant too. No strings attached.
High level of abstract thinking. I like it.
Michael, yeah and I have all kinds of jokes about how fundamentalists, including Adventist ones, are ignorant and marry their sisters. Real funny eh? A little true maybe? Yep, real funny stuff. Got any jokes about Jews or African Americans to round it all out?
There is much in all religious beliefs for lots of laughter for those who are able to laugh at themselves. Stewart is Jewish, Colbert is Catholic, but they regularly make fun of their beliefs. The best, which I would love to see, is "The Book of Mormon" which has been a huge hit on Broadway, and the Mormons seem to love it although it really makes fun of their religion.
How would Adventists relate to a clever and witty writer who produced such a play about Adventists? Yes, there are plenty of subjects in Adventism to have a grand spoof. Would it be censored by Ted? Banned in any SDA showing? What would be the possible reaction? Surely, there are clever and satirical writers in Adventism, WDYT?
Elaine
Aage
Thanks I agree. Tom Z
Could or should the SdA Church adopt this?????
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/church-for-single-mormons-in-crystal...
The Road To Wellville... The Musical :-)
/Bevin
Elaine writes: ""The Book of Mormon" which has been a huge hit on Broadway, and the Mormons seem to love it although it really makes fun of their religion."
I don't think this is true at all. Sure you can find some that love it, but I think most, at least here in Zion, grit their teeth and wish it wasn't there. Just like their reaction to 'Big Love'.
Suggestion: Read "Answer Them Nothing: Bringing Down the Polygamous Empire of Warren Jeffs" by Debra Weyermann and see how the Utah and Arizona LDS worked to stop litigation against Jeffs. Read "Leaving the Saints: How I Lost the Mormons and Found my Faith" by Norma Beck and see how much abuse goes on in many mainline LDS families. I think the concept of male superiority is still alive and very well in Mormonism, and in a closed society leads to a lot of abuse.
Interesting article. You forgot about Chaplain Barry Black, but I guess he's not as well known. How many people in the church know that we have a chaplain with a lifetime appointment who interacts daily with senators? Our own Daniel I suppose.
Mitt Romney may very well be the next President of the USA. What is scary about a Mormon US President is that they view Sunday as the Sabbath, and in the smaller Mormon towns of Utah, they keep Sunday much like SDAs keep the 7th day Sabbath. A few years ago I was traveling through Rexburg, UT, on a Sunday, and was looking to get something to eat, but all the businesses were closed except the new Wal-Mart. My point is, that Romney will not have any problem with signing into law a National Sunday Law.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
What restaurant is open in Loma Linda on Saturday?
Elaine
The point is that SDAs wouldn't operate a restaurant on Sabbath, you know that, because that would break the fourth commandment of the 10 Commandments. But, lets say we have a SDA President of the United States, he wouldn't sign into law a National Sabbath law, while my feeling is that a Mormon President would sign a National Sunday law bill.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
TruthWave, If you are expecting a Sunday Law to come from a President then you have not read much about what the Spirit of Prophecy has to say on the issue. This is why you're making the same mistake that has been made in the past.
I heard one woman (who I respect) with my own ears say that George Bush would "bring in the Sunday Law" by the year 2000.
I can only imagine what happened in SDA circles after JFK was elected.
The SOP clearly describes a joining of politicians and religious leaders, which would be much like the Holy Roman Empire, except that it would launch from the USA and then spread world wide.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
Sound familiar?
Losing My Religion: Confessions of a Guatemalan Mormon Who Grew Up in the Hood
http://zocalopublicsquare.org/thepublicsquare/2011/08/31/losing-my-relig...
"Being a Mormon isn’t just about believing. It’s about being taken care of – spiritually, emotionally, and physically. You don’t just go to church for three hours on Sunday. You do something almost every day that defines you as a Mormon. There are weekly activities, monthly dances, and constant responsibilities....When I was Mormon, I thought I knew everything – where I came from, where I was going, and what I needed to do. It was hard to let go of that. Today, I’m okay with having beliefs based on observation and common sense and changing them when I feel it’s necessary. I’m happy and excited about figuring things out as I go along, about plunging into the unknown at the start of every day and coming back with new experiences and ideas. Above all, I’m okay with not knowing...Where Mormonism so often saw sin and called for repentance, I saw humanity and called for acceptance.
Sunday laws are a joke! And a paranoid one at that. Adventists think they will cause persecution on Gods remnant. Meanwhile Sunday keeping Christians all around the world are being persecuted and losing their life as we speak, not because of the day we worship on, but because they will not deny Jesus as their God and savior!
The last test is not about the Sabbath, it's about who you worship. Will you deny your Lord for the false Messiah?
Christ is the true rest!
"My point is, that Romney will not have any problem with signing into law a National Sunday Law." (SDA Truth Surfer)
That's just what Mitt Romney needs to surf into the White House: banning Jews from worshiping on their Sabbath. His poll numbers will go through the roof.
Aage
Prohibition
------------
1. Sunday Laws would not work. Who is going to enforce them?
2. Prohibition did not work.
3. WalMart is not going to close on Sundays. They lie and cheat to the Federal Government, why would they comply with a holy day. They want to make money.
4. In California, Caucasians are a minority. 19 th Century views for WASP's don't cut it
5. I suggest those who argue Sunday Laws get a job with non-Adventists, work with them and associate with them. People are interested in making a living and getting ahead. Did Ellen G White ever have a job or work? Did she ever talk to, mix, relate to nonAdventists?
6. All the Great Controversy people, conspiracy theorists, Ted Wilson need to get real jobs in the real world, talk, work and associate with ordinary people. They wil just think you are plain weird. Get a real job and see what the world is really like before dictating how it should be saved.
7. We live in a global world. Most of the world is not American and dislike this American saving the
world arrogance. The world is not here to cater to American national interest or American imperialistic theology.
And I could be wrong. But even if there is a Sunday Law, that imeans you have 2 days off. Good for family values.
BTW HOW IS SUNDAY LAWS GOING TO PLAY OUT IN AFGHANISTAN, CHINA, INDIA
Pax et Bonum
Edgar
Bbbazusa,
I agree with you. This Sunday Law thing is more of a paranoia theology that is used to control people's thinking, and their pockets as well...
We are not supposed to judge others, right. Thus, passing judgment on Romney, implying that he may sign a Sunday Law is just wrong. He never said that. And I bet he is not even considering this issue. It's just paranoid adventists that dream with this day and night, frustrated for not being persecuted yet.
In this sense, Teddy's plan do throw 165 million bullets on a not-yet-adventist population is well received by the paranoids, because it can accelerate the course of history and bring immediate persecution...
About Romney: no fear is needed..., because he will never win the presidency anyway!!!
Persecution
-----------------
1. The Great Controversy, Walter Veith all rave about persecution and the shaking and goodness knows what else. As if somehow the coming suffering is going to be extra painful. Unimaginable pain, torment and suffering.
2. Many people saw Mel Gibson' s The Passion of Christ, leaving in tears because of all that suffering? It is as if Jesus out suffered others. Jesus suffered. But I can think of just as painful or more painful ways of suffering. Pain is pain. What about Jews experimented on by Nazi Doctors, was their pain any less? Or the muslims butchered by the Crusaders in Jerusalem after they were promised safe passage.
3. The scenario of super/mega/ultra persecution is just unreal. People who believe it need to get a reality check, visit Auschwitz, vist a Gulag or study the South African truth and reconciliation commission. Black Africans were roasted alive on a spit like roast chicken by white South Africans.
4. Walter Veith, a South African should know about persecution. Was Ellen G White ever persecuted? Was her house ever fire bombed? Was she tortured by the Gestapo? So what does she know about persecution? My mother was 12 years old when the Russians came to East Prussia in the cold winter of 1944, Ellen G White never suffered what my mother did.
5. I want to reiterate my main point, all this 'persecution talk' trivializes people who have suffered pain and torture and death.
6. Persecution will still come. I have seen the type of machetes used by Adventist Hutus who killed Adventist Tutus, organized by a credentialed Adventist Minister. I would rather be shot than hacked to
death with a machete.
7. The Adventist Church does not need to unveil the evil in the world. Most regular folk know about evil. The Third Angel's message talks about preaching the Gospel to the ends of the earth. How come no one is interested in that. You do not have to 'piss off' people, rag on them for being who they are. Jesus preached the Kingdom Of God. He told Satan to 'get stuffed'
8. Before you put a -1 on my post, make sure you read it.
Pax et Bonum
Edgar
Edgar,
I read it, and put a +1.
If they read it, how could anyone mark a -1???
Do you guys keep up on the global news? Or do you have your "head in the sand" Several EU nations have already put into place new Sunday Laws, and where did they arise from? From the EU Catholic Bishops and the Labor Unions working together! That is what EGW was shown would happen right before Jesus return. When things get ugly in countries all over the world, which is what we are seeing as I write this, case in point protests and riots in scores of countries around the world, and now even in the United States. Everything that the Bible and EGW predicted is coming to pass, and yet you cannot admit that you were WRONG! History will repeat itself in our modern era, you will see.
Link to Sunday Law news item: http://www.thetrumpet.com/?q=5676.4031.0.0
The truth and nothing but the truth.
Reality
-----------
Mr TruthWave
1. I grew up in a housing project in England. Visit England sometime. The English people are probably some of the most irreligious people in the world. Yet they are very generous to charities.The Adventist minister in Plymouth did nothing. 'Nothing works. I don't know what to do'
2. English people don't give a hoot about religion, vicars or the C of E or RC. The Adventist Church in England is essentially an immigrant church with now the Samoans, Ghanaians muscling in on the West Indians.
3. In Spain most Adventists are Roumanians and in Ireland they are Roumanians and Poles.
4. I have lived in Sweden, Denmark, England and visited Germany regularly. People do not care about Sunday Laws. They may like a quiet Sunday and then sun bathe naked on the beach.
5. My main point is that people who make these big claims about Sunday Laws do not know what they are talking about. They seem to live in a different world than the people who are going to be Sunday lawed.
I do not say the above to be mean spirited or cocky or arrogant. I am a psychiatrist my job is to check people's realities.
Pax et Bonum
Edgar
Truthwave, gasp...unions trying to get more time off for their workers? Shocking. There is no Sunday Law interest in the EU, other then getting more days off. They get Saturday off too, so maybe it is Saturday Laws we need to fear. You give us lies and nothing but lies.
Truthwave wrote:"...That is what EGW was shown ..."
Great. Can you prove the same theory just from the Bible? Can you think outside the EGW BOX?
It's amazing how adventists become brainwashed with this EGW thing, and can no longer think outside the box. I was that way for (too) many years. But I reserve the right to think by myself, using my own brain. It's a clean brain anyways, because it has been brainwashed before...
By the way EGW saw many things... including a SHUT DOOR, remember?
(Oh..., those visions, aka late night readings and copying...)
BTW HOW IS SUNDAY LAWS GOING TO PLAY OUT IN AFGHANISTAN, CHINA, INDIA--Edgar Drew
Indeed. It'll take some arm twisting to convince the Chinese and the Afghans to enforce the decrees of some future Christian ruler, especially since no Christian group known to humankind advocates such a thing. The myopia of SDA prophetic interpretations is really astounding. A Canadian forest fire that darkened parts of New England on the 19th of May, 1780 was seen as a world-wide event mentioned in Rev.chapter 6, and the efforts of a 19th century Sunday movement was elevated to a portent with world-wide implications.
Given how ludicrous the idea is that the Muslim world and Asia would join in enforcing Sunday worship, SDAs should stop thinking about heading out into the woods to escape persecution where satelites can track their every movement. They should be saving their money for plane tickets and an apartment in China where they'll be safe from Pat Robertson.
Aage
TruthWave - Thu, 11/17/2011 - 22:03
"The point is that SDAs wouldn't operate a restaurant on Sabbath."
Do Adventists eat on Sabbath? Where would they eat if traveling? Oh, "Thank God
for the Gentiles" who can cook for me so I won't have to.
This is still practiced by Orthodox Jews: Get a Gentile neighbor to come light your furnace, turn on your lights, make sure that the nearest synagogue is in walking distance so the Sabbath can be properly observed.
Is it O.K. to use the microwave on Sabbath? Is it O.K. to turn on the heater, lights, use the stove or oven, drive the car to church? All these are forbidden by the same "rules" about lighting a fire or boiling food on sabbath. Just let the heathen Gentiles do the work I won't do--to help me keep my sabbath!
Elaine
When what was "shown" to EGW is coming to pass, that is what proves it is true. You are in denial of reality, if you cannot see that the world is literally coming unglued as we speak. How would you like to live in Athens? EGW was shown the whole world caught up in a scene of strife and anarchy in the end, and we are at the brink now, yet you refuse admit that it is happening before your very eyes! Noah faced the same attitude before the flood that destroyed the world, they refused to hear the inspired words of the messenger sent by God to warn them. History is repeating itself in this time of infamy.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
I too used to wonder what on earth would happen to Jews during the Sunday Law times. I am not sure how this would be enforced.
Also, I live on an island, and it was never clear to me exactly how we were going to hide in the hills of such a small territory.
Be that as it may, graham Maxwell has convinced me that the Sabbath will be an identifying mark of God's people--not by fiat, but by default. In other words, people who understand what the Sabbath is all about (not an arbitrary command by a sovereign God--but an argument about the truth about His character) will ultimately come up against those who do not buy into the principles of the Sabbath.
On that day it will be:
Oppressors vs Liberators
Force vs Free Choice
Love vs Hate
Exclusion vs Inclusion
Authority by fiat vs Authority by love
While we remain enamoured with hierarchy and authority, God waits for His children to grow up:
http://vimeo.com/16520840
Common Ground
--------------------
Mr TruthWave
1. I agree the world is coming unglued. I told my brother yesterday that
- in January 2012 there will be more US troops in Australia than Iraq (talk about gratitude)
- that Syria wil be a true civil war
- that Occupy Wall St. Will not go away. It will become militant
- the next US election will be extremely polarized
- that more countries will default
All these Christmas thoughts.
2. But if you were in the trenches at the Battle of the Somme would you be worried about Sunday Laws, persecution or the 'little horn'?
3. Because I do not see things the way you do, does that make me wrong or you right?
4. Is there any chance of dialogue? Even Ian Paisley was able to laugh with former IRA killers in Northern Ireland?
5. Instead of us taking shots at each other, is there anything in common we can talk about?
Pax et Bonum
Edgar
For strict traditionalists, there is no room for dialogue because in their mind that would make God very displeased with them. I come from this tradition and struggle with that impulse--that's how I can identify. One simply cannot respond to the kind of language you are using. It's too "mushy" and "indefinite".
Olive Branch
-----------------
What kind of people would give me a - 1 for offering an Olive Branch?
Edgar
All the greatest champions of the Gospel have been Sunday keepers!
Gods church that is being persecuted and put to death right now are......Sunday keepers!
The Churches that are spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ around the world right now, and are converting millions are all Sunday keepers!
Billy Graham alone has converted around 35 million people to Christ Jesus, God has blessed him with an immense gift, and he keeps Sunday!
Come to think of it, I don't know a single Sabbath keeping Christian who has done anything great and mighty for God at all in the history of the reformation, or even right now on earth.
Hmmm I wonder why that is? Maybe because all those that keep the Sanbath are under the curse of the law of Sinai and are not NT Christians like Billy Graham, Wessley, Luther, Tyndale, Zwingli etc...
There's a bizzare inconsistency in the way conservative Adventists speak about Sunday Laws.
* They believe Sunday Laws will be universally passed before Christ comes
* They claim Christ's coming is their "blessed hope"
* Every time somebody gets elected or looks like they may get elected, who they think MIGHT introduce Sunday Laws, they freak out
Where's the sense in that? According to their logic, Christ can't come and therefore their "blessed hope" cannot be realised, until Sunday Laws have been passed. You'd think they'd be jumping for joy any time someone gets elected who might do this.
Many Adventists seem obsessed with Sunday laws just around the corner and any apparent movement that way is immediately hyped and declared as a "sign of the end" and the soon-appearance--not of Christ, but of the Mark of the Beast. The Mark of the Beast MUST be enacted before Christ CAN come, so they appear almost anxious for it to occur. Kinda bizarre?
Elaine
@Goetai: Yes, indeed Billy Graham has lead many to Jesus, but what kind of prophetic message does he preach? Light is progressive, the SDA church was raised up to bring greater light on the Bible and specifically the prophecies to unmask the deceptions that Satan has brought upon the Evangelicals and Mainline Protestants, who have for the most part been deceived by Satan into believing Futurism and Preterism, which leaves people clueless as to interpreting the prophetic events that are transpiring in our time. Like the book of Daniel clearly states, that the "wise shall understand, but the wicked will not", and will sadly be lost forever.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Elaine: I'm obsessed with seeing Jesus come again, and finally put an end to sin, and once and for all those who love Him will be able talk to Jesus face to face, and fellowship with others who are saved as well. But, between that event and the now that we are living in, we must be wise and interpret the signs of the times, otherwise we could end up being deceived!! Being vigilant now is imperative! Studying your Bible with fasting and prayer will result in greater understanding of the prophecies. Daniel didn't know and understand everything that was shown him in vision all at once, that is why we must continue to study the prophetic books and passages in the Bible and compare to the current events. Its all coming together now, convergence is the word that describes the signs of the 00's decade.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
I wonder sometimes about the meaning of little epithets like "the truth and nothing but the truth"...
If there is an absolute "Truth" why can't it be clearly identified without centuries of disputation?
I believe it's a fair question to ask of Mitt Romney how his theocratic patriarchal religious views influence his policy goals, especially when it comes to issues like social justice and civil rights. I have a hard time believing Mitt Romney is committed to fighting for my full equality and participation in American political and social life. I have a hard time believing he shares my own vision of my capabilities, potential, and role, which require achieving right balance of freedom and responsibility in American civic life to nurture. Is Mitt Romney a politician first, and a Mormon second, in which case he will do whatever it takes to get elected and serve whatever interests will keep him in power, or will his religious beliefs and worldviews subtly color the political choices he makes?
This is, of course, a much bigger issue than a "Mormon issue." However, the Mormons present such an unusually distilled and relatively unreconstructed (for this century) version of theocratic patriarchalism that the question is the elephant in the PC room.
It is interesting that it's unthinkable that an SDA would ever become president. Aege was very discerning when he pointed to SDA pietism as the cause. Interestingly, scholars have blamed Pietism and the attendant withdrawal from the political sphere as contributing to the rise of Nazism in Germany.
I believe that a vast number of people around the world cease being involved in their religion if it wasn't for all the group, social and family pressure.
TruthWave,
Do you really live, daily contemplating the prophesies of Daniel? Get a life. Seriously, we need to involve ourselves with life and stop obsessing about an obscure, ancient view of the ancient world. So what if Billy Graham got it wrong (if he got it wrong). Does that mean "he's wicked" and not worthy to be bothered with? Can't you just see God saying, at the end of it all, "Sorry Billy, you just didn't understand the book of Daniel so you must die." Ever wonder if your the one being deceived? I mean, when you're deceived, you don't know you're being deceived. Think.
Sirje
Truth Wave
" Like the book of Daniel clearly states, that the "wise shall understand, but the wicked will not", and will sadly be lost forever."
Since you obviously are among the "wise," can you explain to me what the 1290 and 1335 days of Daniel 12 mean? Or could it be that you're among the "wicked" who don't have a clue? While you're at it, I'd like to know who the "king of the North" and "the king of the South" in Dan.11 are?
Or are you ready to concede that Christianity is not a Bible quiz.
Aage
Carroll, I'm interested in your observations linking the official LDS church with the FLDS. I think those kinds of connections can be suggested, though I'd be surprised if most ordinary Mormons are part of that. I'm suspicious of any idea that supposes the average Mormon in the pews is participating in a nefarious secret scheme. Like us, there are things in their church they're embarrassed about. I urge you to listen to Joanna Brooks—preferably the longer, uncut interview—that I link to in the article. It gives a more human face to Mormonism.
Still, it must be said that churches like ours and theirs, because we came from fringe movements, have a hard time pushing away our own fringe elements. Many here have noted, correctly, I think, that we Seventh-day Adventists are much more tolerant of far right wackiness than we are of anyone who moves to the left even slightly. You can make extravagant claims in the name of SDA eschatology, for example, and you won't be pushed out until you do something like Koresh or Michael Travesser did. Go to any ASI convention—arguably the most vitalized part of the SDA church—and you'll see, mingling with what are mostly ordinary SDA businesspeople, people who believe in every variety of quack health claim, extreme Ellen Whitism, groups that take tithe money, even groups who come as closely as they can to saying the SDA church is itself corrupt. These even have booths. I can imagine Walter Veith being received there more warmly than Good News Unlimited, for example. And ASI is strongly supported by our church leaders. Imagine what conclusions an outside observer could come up with about us if one of us moved into the presidential race? What would appear in the news if some of those mythical stories about Catholicism or Satanism I wrote about last month, still widely believed in some circles, were told to the reporter who would go to an ASI convention in order to shed some light on an SDA presidential candidate? Could he conclude that's who we all are?
And, by the way, Carroll, there's plenty of abuse in SDA families, too, not just Mormon ones.
Where we spend our time and money reveals the intents of the heart...
"we Seventh-day Adventists are much more tolerant of far right wackiness than we are of anyone who moves to the left even slightly"
That is accepted by a great many Adventists, but would you care to speculate why it is so? Is there something in the SDA "genes" that makes so many of them become attracted to such wackiness? Surely, Baptists and Presbyterians have not been followers of such occult teachings, have they?
Elaine
Aage,
It will be easy for Truthwave to answer your questions, I presume. Since he knows it all, there should be no difficult to do that.
I can't wait for his BIBLICAL explanation. Hopefully it will be a "non-prophet" explanation, just "biblical"... Hopefully...
This post is a very insightful comparison/contrast, though I'm a little uncomfortable with the term "weird" as that is really in the eyes of the beholder. As to why Mormons have been more effective in impacting the American culture, I think it's largely about numbers and geography. The Seventh-day Adventist church has about four million more members, but we have much less in the U.S. Having a higher percentage of believer in the U.S is naturally going to mean having more famous Americans. Not only that, but they are highly concentrated in the South West, and have their own state, that naturally is going to mean more political influence in a Republic.
A “religious cult” can be defined as follows:
1. The leader is not accountable to any authority.
2. The leaders teach infallibility in their teachings and/or the writings of their leader (see footnote).
3. The leader (prophet/prophetess) claims to speak for God.
4. Members believe that they are superior to others because of their unique teachings as they have knowledge of God’s will that other Christians do not have, aka “The Remnant” mentality or us-versus-them mentality. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself.
5. The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think and act.
6. Members taking issue with the authority of the leader are excommunicated, disfellowshipped or not allowed to hold office.
7. Individuals that leave the group are lost and without salvation. The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group.
8. What they write and teach their followers contradicts Bible.
Now guess which group teaches the following:
• Churches except SDA are teaching lies from the Devil, and prayers spoken in other churches are/were answered by the Devil.
• The final “test” is Saturday. If a person does not keep Saturday as Sabbath, he cannot be saved
• Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
• The atonement was not complete on the cross.
• Jesus is now cleaning the sanctuary in the heaven, which is necessary before he returns.
• You will stand in the presence of God for judgment without a mediator.
• Teach "sinless perfection," meaning that a person can become sinless while living on earth.
Note: "We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White’s writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and thorough in one case as in the other." Ministry, October 1981 (never retracted).
Hmmm…
tg
TJG,
I wish I could give you more than one "up arrow", but you are absolutely correct IMHO. The Mormon doctrine is way more unorthodox than SDA, and the tales that JS propagated, are way more ridiculous than EGW, but at the end of the day, they are both unbiblical and heretical.
I listen to a program hosted and started by a former Mormon. He was born into the church, and was there for 40 years. He was very involved in the LDS church, not just a casual or nominal member. It is so interesting to hear the comments from the callers who are present members. Pretty much, in fact almost identical, to comments made by SDA regarding what they believe about their status as the remnant, restorers of lost "truths" by their prophet, all other Protestant churches are wrong and daughters of the harlot, and of course, you are lost and deceived if you leave "the truth". They absolutely cannot believe that people leave the church because of studying their way out through the Bible. Formers left because of being hurt, deceived, or they want to live sinful lives. Sound familiar? And then the former Mormons have many of the same experiences of former SDA's who leave, regarding how they are perceived and treated. It is shameful to confer upon people the mantle of Satan if they don't follow their particular church. I've heard SDA and LDS say that Jesus was an Adventist, or was a Mormon. It just doesn't get any more ridiculous than that. Interesting that both cults have almost the exact same verbiage on so many things. LDS and SDA try to appear orthodox these days, but as long as the doctrines are so off, they can't be considered orthodox. The brainwashing is so strong for both groups. Very much a scorched earth policy...it's "us" or those poor deceived "others".
I'm sure we've heard the expression, "You can't fix stupid". Well, you can't fix a church with a false prophet and unbiblical doctrine, without getting rid of both. The whole thing would crumble without Joseph or Ellen. I feel sorry for the folks trying to have the Bible and the Bible only in the SDA church, but it can't be done on a large scale because of EGW. Yes, she said some orthodox things, but lots and lots and lots of really bad stuff. Dare I say really, really weird? I could go on and on about that, but I won't.
As to why Mormon's are more well known, they definitely have a more colorful and interesting history, and yes, they pretty much have their own state. They also are "allowed" to pursue lots of professions...entertainment, sports, etc. that SDA's can't really be involved in successfully.
Carol
Posted by Aage Rendalen - Thu, 11/17/2011 - 15:44
In many ways Adventism and Mormonism have followed a similar path to that of chiropractors and osteopathic practitioners who started as upscale quacks, but who over the years have acquired a great deal of legitimacy by moving towards the medical mainstream. They still hold on to their archaic vocabulary, e.g. "vertebral subluxation complex" and the likes, but they can no longer be called quacks.
I suggest that those who design to define cults are not accountable to any authority, and dictate how people should think and act, etc., etc. :)
Ducking for incoming down arrows... lol
By the same token, folks who design a particular religion are not accountable to any authority and dictate how people should think and act, etc., etc..
ALL RELIGIONS are man made, which is why the definitions for religions and cults have the same human origins.
Elaine
Thank God!
I found this article very interesting. I have long thought that LDS and the SDA church had some interesting things in common. The 2 most striking being a prophet and the timing of their historical emergence. This was strongly brought home to me in the indepth documentary that PBS aired a few years back on LDS. It shed a lot of light on them and in turn I could not stop making comparisions to the SDA church. It was very interesting.
As for Mitt R., given the historical baggage the LDS church carries with the US government I am still not sure a Mormon can get through, in addition to fundamentalist within the Repub. party being very suspicious of Mormons. My bet is that even if Mitt R. got the nomination he could not get to the Oval Office. We shall see.
As for the side issue of the Sundays Laws I do not completely discount what many SDA conservatives say. BUT the SDA's church's understanding of the prime motivation behind Sunday Laws might be very wrong. The primary motivation does NOT have to be religious at all. The motivation might stem from some great castophie, or extremely dire enviromental or economic issue--which might have nothing at all to do with religion but which might force the world to act in unison AND at the same time could well serve a religious purpose of some interested religious parties.
I think the word "cult" has largely lost its usefulness. Religious people defining other religious people as Cults, because they have ridiculous beliefs, are like individuals unaware that they too poop. There are a couple commentators above who in their great and mighty wisdom declare Mormons and Adventists Cults because we teach "ridiculous" stuff, have a prophet, think we have a claim to truth, and are non-biblical. That last point is where you guys lose credibility. The Bible is chock-full of what anyone not raised in it would consider ridiculous. The Bible is full of prophets who claimed to speak for God, and this claim you make that one must be Biblical are they are a wacky cult is a fairly clear claim that you have the truth and others do not. Everything you say about "Cults" can be and has been said about Biblical religion. The difference between mainstream wacky ideas and "cults" is that the mainstream ideas have been aged and are held by more adherents.
P.S. Just as so as to be perfectly I do not hold to the conventional wisdom that strange=false, therefore, I believe in the Bible despite its out of the world claims.
• Churches except SDA are teaching lies from the Devil, and prayers spoken in other churches are/were answered by the Devil.
• The final “test” is Saturday. If a person does not keep Saturday as Sabbath, he cannot be saved
• Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
• The atonement was not complete on the cross.
• Jesus is now cleaning the sanctuary in the heaven, which is necessary before he returns.
• You will stand in the presence of God for judgment without a mediator.
• Teach "sinless perfection," meaning that a person can become sinless while living on earth.
1. That would be a straw-man taught by Spectrumites as nearly as I can tell. 2. That would be a rather obscure point not many care about. 3. That would be a very un-nuanced statement of our beliefs, and only fully held by traditionalists holding to pre-QOD understanding. 4. That would be the Seventh-day Adventists. 5. That would be a fringe of the Seventh-day Adventist church, so again a strawman if you're using it to apply to all of us. 6. See number 5.
It seems a good deal of these are advanced more by Spectrum then they are the contemporary church, so maybe Spectrum is the Cult.
I read Jon Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven" when I was a lot less liberal and boy did it remind me of our church in parts! So yes, there are similarities between SDA and Mormons.
Great book to check out in general.
I chalk it up to similarities in date and place of origin (19th century New England area).
I am also wary of this "cult" thing. It's become just another pejorative term.
"I think the word "cult" has largely lost its usefulness." (John Mark)
The world "cult" is the insider's judgment of the outsider. I accept the concept of "cult" being used to describe groups led by fanatical or sociopathic despots, but when it comes to doctrine, a cult is merely a religious group that most people are still uncomfortable with. When the Salvation Army appeared in the 19th century, replete with army uniforms and army-type marching bands, they looked utterly ludicrous, and every one of us would probably have called it a cult. Today nobody laughs. Through exemplary dedication to the outcasts of society they have become accepted by all. (Even EGW suggested that Adventists let the Salvation Army take care of the poor, so that the SDA church could dedicate itself to the more important work of preparing people to pass God's end-time Bible quizz, to which her church alone had the answer key.)
Labeling other groups' interpretations of the Bible as 'cultic' is not helpful, because it's an exercise in subjectivity. Take the Evangelical Torquemada, Walter Martin, who was obsessed with ferreting out the minions of Satan within the Christian flock. Who was he, a fundamentalist Evangelical, to establish the criteria for who was 'in' and who was 'out'? To him somebody who believed in the Plymouth Brethren's 19th century rapture invention was 'in' while those who rejected the Trinity was 'out.' Ultimately, to Martin, a cult was a group that did not accept orthodoxy as defined by the orthodox. Even though he demolished Bill Johnson in that memorable and cringe-inducing debate in the early 1980s, I'd rather have lived next to Bill Johnson than Walter Martin (had he still been alive.)
Orthodoxy is about tradition, not exegesis. And exegesis is about which text in the Bible you exegete, and how you relate that to how you read a text that goes in a different direction. There is the objectivity of 66 Bible books, but the rest of what goes for Christian faith is a minefield of subjective elements that people negotiate in so many different ways that we need to be careful with the cultic label. Ultimately, it's all in the eye of the beholder.
Aage
It may not happen often, but I pretty much agree with Aage on this. The fact that Cult is used to describe "groups led by fanatical or sociopathic despots," is all the more reason why it shouldn't be used to bash people for not believing in the trinity. Arguing that talking animals and men walking on water is orthodox, but a God with wives and holy underwear is weird and cultish is not an entirely productive conversation.
Cult comes from the Latin and French (culte) meaning care or adoration usually reserved for a group that has a fixation or adoration for a charismatic leader---usually with either a religious or health
mania. Generally an excessive fixation on an quest for purity either spiritually or physically or both.
Tom Z
The spiritual abuse, whether done with good or bad intentions, is what is so destructive with cults. Fear, intimidation and control are the name of the game.
SDA is only similar to LDS in the areas that they were both American rooted and started in the same era. SDA is a bible base evangelical denomination. SDA, by our root, put aside the trivial observance of the Sabbath, we have much more liberal and charitable views to the world around us. It is just only recently, in the last 20 years or so, that those charitable and liberal views have changed and leaned toward the right (I attribute that to the 40-something church leaders, whose formation years were influenced by the Reagan self-indulged era).
Try to compare LDS (in possitive ways) with Islam, we may find these two organizatio having much more similiarities in their style and belief.
Beware of the Mormon Church - Exposed http://www.squidoo.com/mormon-church
Everyone, Mr Widemouth, gets exposed sooner or later. Even Adventists.
http://defendingcontending.com/2009/01/03/seventh-day-adventism-exposed/
Rachel,
Many people would be unable to recognize the church history you just laid out.
Truthwave, would you listen today to "the inspired words of the messenger sent by God to warn them" (as you posted about Noah's time) if they came on the lips of an ordained woman?
Rachel... I assume it's a "history" of your experience in an ethnic SDA community you just laid out. Is it the "under-40" instead of "40-something" (meaning above-40) you referred to as being regressive and inward-looking, unlike their more liberal, above-40 first-generation immigrant parents who seem to have a more charitable view of the world around them? Correct me, please, if I'm wrong. We may have the exact same perplexing observation of birthing a fundamentalist second-generation of immigrant ethnic SDAs who find GYC attractive.
Let me try to explain why the current line of reasoning will not work with Truthwave.
If he or she is anything like I was here are the problems:
1. There is a strong desire for "one best way". In one sense there is a distrust of diversity of opinion or any room for "interpretation".
Who polices diversity?
How can I know if I'm correct if I am not told exactly what to do?
Remember, in a church that emphasizes truth as important for life itself and also classifies truth as "information", the wrong "facts" can get you killed. There is no room for error.
As a result of this,
2. There is a strong distrust of self. I continue to struggle with self-doubt up to this day. More often than not there is no sense of assurance behind my doubts that God is with me.
Doubt is accompanied by fear that God will punish me for my questioning.
After all the human heart is wicked--so I cannot even be sure my doubts are sincere.
Also,
3. A one best model is seen a a rock-solid barometer of the one way things are supposed to be done.
Time and place and context do not matter.
In my world our practices were not explained as having any connected rationale. Rather each Adventist peculiarity had its own independent reasoning associated with it--layers of reasoning.
So you just have this sense that a certain era (not necessarily the 1800s--but the 1950s to 60s will do; depending on the age of your superiors) is the embodiment of God's requirements. Things ordained back then were just "pure". There is a feeling of familiarity and stability in old practices and institutions.
If you're thinking it's psychological it is. You aren't reasoned into this position--you just feel incredibly guilty when you question certain views, habits and practices. Many times I feel as if I am a misguided reprobate. In fact, as I have mentioned before, I feel guilty even reading Spectrum.
So reasoning will not work.
Nothing has to be consistent.
If Jesus did not ordain women then it's a sin to do so--regardless of any other common church practice that God did not institute.
Also, many times I disagree on some point or another with some of the more traditional older people around here. That too is a source of extreme guilt.
These people appear so devout and sincere--you wonder how on earth you can disagree with them. After all, if anyone of closer to God it must be them!
So why would they be wrong? Clearly they know God better. They certainly pray and read the Bible more than I do. Wouldn't God tell them the truth? How could they be wrong?
If you find what I am saying to be alien, consider that the Caribbean is a very hierarchical society (by colonial design). Authority matters. This is why the SDA message is so popular here.
(As an aside it may be true that the SDA message is most popular in societies where authority and hierarchy are the dominant social norms--and less popular in more egalitarian societies.)
Some interesting Mormon trivia: "Kolob" is the star or planet closest to God's residence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob
There's even a hymn about it:
http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/03/if-you-could-hie-to-kolob-l...
The writer of Battlestar Galactica, Glenn A. Larsen, is a Mormon, and Kobol is the origin of the planet Kobol.
Also in Trinidad and Tobago
Based on my equally personal sense of 'being' a Seventh-day Adventist that first dawned in the 1940s, your 3-element insight into the Seventh-day Adventist mind is simply the most pragmatically insightful thinking I've read in Spectrum on- or off-line ... ever.
I am in awe!
Bill Garber
End Time
--------------
1. I am in a dilemma and do not know what to do?
2. The time is short. That is what the Great Controversy people say, Walter Veith says, the Sunday Law people say. BUT so does my Social Security calculator for retirement say.
3. I am 58 years old and have worked hard and am burnt out. I have so precious life energy left. I need to rebuild it.
4. TIME IS SHORT
5. So shall I read the Bible, Ellen G White, panic about Sunday laws, figure out who actually is telling the truth OR should I take a sabbatical, rest my body and soul, nurture myself in a positive, productive activity.
6. Which should it be? Go to New York, pound the pavement and give out Great Controversy, warn about Sunday Laws or should I go and rest my soul at a spiritual retreat in the stunningly beautiful countryside of Sweden?
7. The truth and Nothing but the truth please
Pax et Bonum
Edgar
John Mark wrote:
1. That would be a straw-man taught by Spectrumites as nearly as I can tell.
2. That would be a rather obscure point not many care about.
3. That would be a very un-nuanced statement of our beliefs, and only fully held by traditionalists holding to pre-QOD understanding.
4. That would be the Seventh-day Adventists.
5. That would be a fringe of the Seventh-day Adventist church, so again a strawman if you're using it to apply to all of us.
6. See number 5.
Response:
1) Churches except SDA are teaching lies from the Devil, and prayers spoken in other churches are/were answered by the Devil.
REFERENCE: "I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be on the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breath on them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but now sweet love, joy and peace. Satan’s object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God’s children."
Early Writings, p. 56.
2) The final “test” is Saturday. If a person does not keep Saturday as Sabbath, he cannot be saved
REFERENCE: “The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false Sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God's law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God”
The Great Controversy, 1950, p. 605
3) Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
REFERENCE:
a) "Michael, or Christ, with the angels that buried Moses" (Jude 9, Spiritual Gifts, IV a, p. 158)
b) "There is none that holdeth with me in these things but Michael (Christ) your prince." (Desire of Ages p. 99)
c) “In conclusion, we see this majestic and mysterious being, sometimes called Michael, sometimes the angel of the Lord, sometimes the commander of the Lord’s army, veiling His divinity and appearing in the form of a humble angel. Yet this same enigmatic being has the power, authority and attributes that belong only to God. He evicts the devil from heaven; He resurrects the dead; He intercedes for the saints; He judges and then stands, launching the great time of trouble. He redeems the saints and receives their worship. He offers us a new name.
Now you may know who Michael is, but the devil knows too, and it won't save him. The big question is: Do you know Him as Jesus your personal Lord and savior?”
Who-Is-Michael-The-Archangel? by Doug Batchelor Copyright © 2002
4) The atonement was not complete on the cross.
REFERENCE:
a) “The intercession of Christ in man's behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was His death upon a cross. By His death He began that work which after his resurrection He ascended to complete in Heaven"
TGC, pp. 488–89
b) "The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel sin....It will stand in the sanctuary until the final atonement"
Patriarchs and Prophets, P. 357
5) Jesus is now cleaning the sanctuary in the heaven, which is necessary before he returns.
REFERENCE: Fundamental Belief #24
6) You will stand in the presence of God for judgment without a mediator.
REFERENCE: “Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator"
TGC p. 425
7) Teach "sinless perfection," meaning that a person can become sinless while living on earth.
REFERENCE:
a) "Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression"
SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 6, p. 1118
b) "To be redeemed means to cease from sin"
Review & Herald, September 25, 1900
Your thoughts?
tg
John Mark, did you grow up in this church? I wonder because most of the beliefs you dismiss as not representative have been major in the SDA ethos. Especially, the Sabbath as the final test, & that there's no mediator after probation closes so we must be perfect. Some of us have struggled & studied to move beyond in the search for spiritual well-being. Others (not a "fringe") still hold these beliefs & castigate those who don't as having lost the true faith.
____________________________________________________
"be reverent in behavior, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good" titus 2:3
Your thoughts? (tg)
You are course right (even though you don't believe it yourself). There are at least two EGWs, and these particular dogmas were written by one of them. For the early EGW, who, like everybody else, was an Arian, the view that the pre-existent Christ and Michael were one and the same person was logical. Back then Adventists believed that Jesus and Satan were God's created sons. Since Jesus, to the chagrin of his sibling Satan, was pre-eminent, the head of the angelic host--in other words, God's archangel--the identification was easy to make.
Mormons are attacked in similar ways. Look at the literature put out by the Tanners of Salt Lake, and you'll see it full of references to Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses, which is a treasure trove of embarrassing teachings that Mormons try to forget ever existed. Just like Adventists can bring themselves to believe that EGW actually believed that 'some races of men' had arisen through 'amalgamation of man and beast," Mormons deny vehemently that they believe in [human] blood atonement or that Jesus will return to Independence, Missouri at the Second Coming, among other things. Churches call upon the sinners of the world to confess their sins, but they themselves put their credibility solidly ahead of any urge to confess that they have believed 'false' doctrines or behaved badly. Mormons and Adventists have closets full of skeletons, and both groups hate it when somebody yanks the doors open to let bones clatter into public view. The same goes for the Roman Catholic Church, and Adventists love to kick those bones about--while implying that the past is the present. But that is simply not the case.
All churches that have survived the centuries have moved beyond their worst history. Neither Mormons nor Adventists nor Catholics--in spite of all rhetoric to the contrary--are any longer what they were. That's why any religious or secular movement must be judged on basis of what they are today, and not on what they were a century or more ago. And finally, just as every person is more than his or her greatest weakness, organizations also tend to be better than their greatest failures. It would admittedly be much easier to get that point across if organizations would themselves ask for forgiveness, and not limit themselves to dispensing the promise of forgiveness.
Aage
Questions for Aage
---------------------
Aage:
1. If Ted Wilson called you up and asked you 'Aage, what do I do? I can't just shut up shop and just say it was all a big mistake. I can't just shut down the Adventist Church and say, until we have sorted out what we believe we are out of business' A sort of Ted Wilson 'shut door'
2. 'Aage, I have the moneyed traditionalists on one side, I have got Kinship on the other side. What do I do? Can the current structure accommodate and change?'
3. 'Aage, Gorbachev, he tried to reform the Communist party, and within nine years he was out of a job and there was no empire'
4. 'Aage, once the Communist party gave up it's 'leading role in society', it had no uniqueness. Aage, if I give up 'the remnant church = SDA church, why would anyone join. We will be out of business.' 'And Aage what about all the denominational employees, like the 'nomenklatura', they have striven hard to get their position and perks, they will fire me'
5. If Ted Wilson was truly sincere, what would you say to him?
Pax et Bonum
Edgar
Why do people call it the great Advent movement? the only great thing about it was a disappointment. And the 2 main movements that came out of it are the SDA and the JW' S .
Ted would then be faced with Hobson's Choice.
Elaine
Clarification:
My original comments regarding “cults” was posted on 11/19/2011 – 11:04.
John Mark responded, numbered 1-6, to a portion of my comments on 11/19/2011 – 15:13.
My latest post, 11/22/2011 – 22:11, was a “short-hand” answer to John Mark’s comments.
I ended with “your thoughts” in hopes of eliciting a response from John Mark.
Even though Babbazusa writes to Aage, I’d like to take a crack at it.
Bbbazusa writes:
1. If Ted Wilson called you up and asked you 'Aage, what do I do? I can't just shut up shop and just say it was all a big mistake. I can't just shut down the Adventist Church and say, until we have sorted out what we believe we are out of business. A sort of Ted Wilson 'shut door.'
If Ted called me, I would suggest he write the following to our church:
Dear Brothers and Sisters:
We are sorry for leading you astray. Please forgive us.
The bible says in Deuteronomy 18:22 “If the prophet speaks in the LORD's name but his prediction does not happen or come true, you will know that the LORD did not give that message. That prophet has spoken without my authority and need not be feared.” And in Isaiah 8:20 scripture says “if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”
As you all know, William Miller predicted the world would end on October 22, 1844. Well, not technically. Samuel Snow did and Miller jumped on board toward “the end.” But, let’s not get bogged down in the details. For the sake of moving this along, we’ll just say Miller predicted “the end.”
Nevertheless, Jesus didn't come and we’re still here 167 years later, give or take. According to scripture, Miller was a false prophet. It’s as plain as the nose on my face. It also means that there was “no light” in him, meaning, there was “no light” in him. Yes, I know. We’ve been telling you there is, but there isn’t. If there was, that would be contrary to the plain teachings of scripture. You know all those calculations he used, all 15 of them, including our favorite “the 2300,” well, there’s no truth to it. That year = day stuff, it’s all nonsense. No light, means just what it says – NO LIGHT.
We at the General Conference, and especially at the BRI, apologize for leading you astray for all these years. As I said at the beginning, we apologize and ask for your forgiveness.
Next week we’ll talk about the Sanctuary and the Investigative Judgment in a little more detail. In weeks following we’ll be discussing Ellen White, “The Great Controversy,” “The Remnant,” just to name a few, and how to properly understand the Book of Revelation. Please stay tuned.
Sincerely, Ted
tg
Edgar
I'm 30 years out of the SDA church and I'm not even a believer, so I'm not the best person to turn to for advice on how to revive the SDA church (in the developed world). I'm up in the bleachers and I don't even have a good seat, but here are some thought I've had since before I left the church.
First of all, closing down the church is a non-starter. You're talking about a vast network of people and family relations--a living organism--whose social glue is Adventism. Shuttering a denomination because of a history of dogmatic missteps is to elevate theological perspicacity to a role it shouldn't have. Christianity is not a Bible quiz; it's a fellowship around a person. The fact that the Adventist founders elevated an apocalyptic fiasco into a theological dogma is nothing to be proud of, but neither is it a reason to dissolve the church. Dogmas like the investigative judgment and the immaculate conception of Mary are the ghost stories that Christians have told each other while sitting around the campfire of faith. Ghost stories enhance the experience of camping out together; the problem arises when people go home and insist that you won't be invited back to the campfire fellowship unless you take these stories literally. Camping, to pursue that analogy, is not about ghost stories but about fellowship and nearness to the starry sky. Christians, unfortunately, have often forgotten that church is about the fellowship of faith, about the person that has brought them together, and not primarily about the reflections and stories of church people.
The offense of Adventism, in my mind, is that it charges ideological admission to the Christian fellowship it offers. You need to sign off on a pledge that all stories ever told around the SDA campfire must be believed before you can be baptized into the fellowship of Christ. I would love to see that changed. I wish the SDA church would admit to its fellowship all people who're not offended by Adventist beliefs. The offense of Adventism is not its beliefs but the role those beliefs play in the SDA mind.
The greatest evil introduced into Christendom, in my mind, was the idea of religion as gnosis--secret knowledge--and that Christianity was a cognitive quest for the perfect password to Heaven.
Aage
Aage
Thank you
Edgar
I remember some years back when morphing was the rage among some of my computer geek friends. I recall the hilarity when they started with a photo of me and it slowly morphed into a rather sexy female top model of the time! - a great improvement!!!
Perhaps our metaphor for the journey of the church needs to be a morphing one. Instead of a futile effort of trying to keep Adventism picture perfect according to an 1800s one (when no one knows what it really looked like then anyway), how about we vision the ideal of the values and community we seek, not worry about what we once were, and celebrate the journey of becoming rather than argue on how it fits into the past. I think a lot of hang ups would go and a great deal of angst would drop away, and our community would become something truly healthy and whole.
Amen, Gave.
A return to the past is impossible. You can't go home again, no matter how hard it is tried. But it seems the leader is intent on doing that. Problem: he can't be assured of taking the church with him.
Elaine
Edgar's questions ask if our denomination could stand for the truth. Could it? Not just when it bolsters our identity, but as the Worldwide Church of God did, at great cost in members & finances? I include here just a bit about their journey to become Grace Communion International, written by the church president who shepherded their transformation.
"Jesus Christ changes lives. He can change an organization, too. This is the story of how the Lord changed our denomination from an unorthodox church on the fringes of Christianity, into an evangelical group that believes and teaches orthodox doctrines. The story involves both pain and joy. Thousands of members left the church. Income is less than one fourth of what it once was. But thousands of members are rejoicing with renewed zeal for their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
http://www.gci.org/aboutus/history
"Repeatedly in the past few years I have been asked by many WCG members, "How could God have allowed us to wander in serious error...? Where was He all that time?
"My answer is this: It’s really not God’s fault. He’s not to blame. He’s not the one culpable for our ignorance, for our lack of scholarship, for our mistakes in interpreting Scripture. All those things were our own doing. We fell into falsehood because of our brokenness, because we are people born in sin, because we tried to manage things on our own.
"God has known all the time that we have been doctrinally off the track. Yet God is sovereign, and He is infinitely greater than our sin and confusion and errors. In His sovereignty and love He has been patient with us. Today I have a deeper appreciation than ever before for the apostle’s words: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9)."
http://www.gci.org/aboutus/truth/epilogue
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"be reverent in behavior, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good" titus 2:3
This, from the link above, shows true revival and reformation! Amazing story of the Worldwide Church of God finding authenticity, openness, honesty and humility. William Johnson from Adventist Review, said at the time that we mustn't do anything like they have done because of what it would cost the church. So glad the WCC didn't follow his advice. Read and be inspired:
It was a time of anguish and depression.
Something unexpected also happened: Many members, after struggling to understand the doctrinal change, began to experience a new sense of peace and joy through a renewed faith in Jesus Christ. Their identity was in him, not in the particular laws they kept. ... the result was that members became more spiritual. Members focused more on their relationship with Jesus Christ; they also had an increased interest in worship. Organizationally, the doctrinal changes had catastrophic results. But spiritually, they were the best thing that ever happened to us.
It was a tumultuous decade... The number of employees at headquarters fell from 1,000 to 40. Our reduced income forced us to remove many pastors from the payroll, and lay pastors were chosen for small congregations...
This is what true revival and reformation is! Here is exciting info from the link above about the Worldwide Church of God's courageous journey. Oh that Adventism would do similar. Not easy, but profound. When this happened,
In 1996, (world leader) Joe Tkach wrote an article apologizing to members and to all who were hurt by the church’s erroneous teachings and practices. He asked for forgiveness and cooperation.]
Our doctrinal changes took about 10 years. It was 10 years of turmoil and tremendous reorientation. We all had to reorient ourselves, to reconsider our relationship with God. Our sharp drop in income required an immense change in organizational structure—and again, it was not easy, and it was not quick. In fact, the organizational restructuring took about as long as the doctrinal re-evaluation did.
Every congregation was reorganized. Most have new pastors—often serving without pay. New ministries have developed, often with new ministry leaders. Multilevel hierarchies have been streamlined, and more members have taken active roles as churches have become involved in their local communities. Local church advisory councils are working together to make plans and set budgets. It is a new start for us all.
@TruthWave
Don't allow any of the naysayers to discourage you. We are living in the end times and many people will not listen. Yes, you are correct. The foundation for the Sunday law is being put into place so that when the calamities become so severe the people will be more willing to accpet it. Many people don't even realize that the Holy Spirit is slowly but surely being withdrawn from the world. Keep the faith and do not become discouraged by those who refuse to believe.
After 9/11 (september 11, 2001), I remember someone saying that one of the many failures of the government regarding this event was a lack of imagination. I remember how many people flocked to the churches after 9/11 and how all the different religions united. Why is it so hard for people to think that the many calamities spoken of in Matthew 24 and in Revelation will not get so bad that the people will be seeking to know God because of fear and not love and that it will be easier to enforce the Sunday law? The final movements will be rapid and too many people will not be ready. Continue to spread the word and don't take to heart any veiled insults that may come your way. After all, it is better to serve God than man. Continue to walk in the light while you have the light. May the good Lord bless and keep you.
Andy
The Pattern of the Double-Bind in Mormonism:
http://www.exmormon.org/pattern/dbmormon.htm
One of the good things about our time is that wide-spread education and the rise of humanist values have undermined the wild bigotries of the past. Although there are people who consider a politician's religion a disqualifying factor, it's nothing like it used to be. The New York Times (Dec 11) has a fascinating story about the raw bigotry stirred up in 1928 when Democrats nominated Catholic Al Smith of New York as their presidential candidate.
http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/10/when-a-catholic-terrif...
Today we have people such as (Mormon) Glen Beck who spouts similar outlandish conspiracy theories, but the under-educated segment of society today is too small for crazy to turn into a craze.
Aage
I am a Mormon, and it is often interesting to see how others view us, especially those also in the restorationist tradition. Truth be told, I know very little about Seventh Day Adventists, but it does make for an interesting topic to contrast and compare.
Nice write-up!
Trevor
Since you're here--and please stay, your input would be both interesting and valuable, especially coming from an academic point of view (I assume your use of 'restorationist tradition' indicates you're either in grad school or teaching in one)--could you compare and contrast the problems faced by SDA fundamentalists who insist that the world-shaping Flood of creationism took place in the third millennium BCE, for which there is no evidence, with the problems facing the LDS church with respect to a Book of Mormon not very well grounded in the archaeological soil of the Americas?
To what extent does the LDS church rely on scientifically based apologetics?
Aage
Trevor,
Welcome! And please, stay! I am sure you can make valuable contributions to Spectrum's discussions.
(Hope you are strong enough to take some harsh comments from some Spectrumites - some of them firmly believe that God went on vacation and left THEM in charge...)
Regardless of what she claims or implies, Joanna Brooks is not a spokesperson for anyone but Joanna Brooks.
As a practicing member of the Mormon faith, I can say that many of us attempt to abide by the scripture in John summarized as "in the world, not of the world". It's a challenge for all of us. Especially those in the public eye who try to maintain the faith. But we believe that means for us to actively participate in the world and try to effect positive change. Some are better at doing this than others. Also, we don't have to be commanded in all things but are encouraged to be engaged in good causes.
Sabbath day observance is a big one for the faithful as well. But if you're running for president and a debate is scheduled on a Sunday morning, "the ox is in the mire". The church school (BYU) athletic teams never compete on Sunday.
My in-laws lived in the greater Seattle area near a large SDA building. If it rained on Saturday and was beautiful on Sunday, my LDS father-in-law would say the Adventists won. If it was beautiful weather on Saturday and rained on Sunday, he would say the LDS won. He didn't keep a serious tally, it was just something he joked with his Adventist neighbors about. =)
It is likely as difficult for Adventists to "prove" the date of the world-wide flood as for Mormons to prove the golden tablets were found and translated--now long hidden.
Apologetics need no evidence, just a sufficient number of true believers who "believe what they know ain't so."
Elaine
The Mormon church is a church based on Spiritualism. I believe it to be the 3rd church power that EGW warned about that would form a triangle with the Roman Catholic church and Protestantism. It fits. It is a very rich church with power. There has been a coming together on points that they hold in common. Abortion, Gays, Sunday sacredness, spirit babies and immorality for the soul are among those points they agree on. But they especially agree that they have the numbers and the power and money to bring about their agenda.
It does not fit that "Spiritualism" mentioned by EGW is a loose New Age or occult bunch seeking power. Those people don't care if you attend church nor will they care if you keep Sunday. But the Mormon church does.
It really is time that Religious Right Adventists take a look at what they may bring on themselves when they align up with "value voters" for the future theocracy that is on it's way. If there should ever be a "Great Awakening" it is need now for honest freedom loving Christians to educate and inform themselves and others about the Reconstruction/Dominionist that are determined to destroy our Constitution and Government so they can Reconstruct it into a theocracy. Their plan is not just for the USA but the whole world.
The Rapture theory is loosing steam. There are churchmen that are already saying that they had it wrong and the real Bible doctrines are what Rushdoony had been teaching. They claim that Jesus won't come until all the world has been dominated and become submissive to their view. These are the people that will bring about laws to destroy our Religious Liberty. EGW says that the whole world will be converted to their cause. Perhaps a huge portion out of fear.
Alison J Agins
ABO-Anybody but obama
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ABO-Anybody but obama
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