The 15 foot tall skeleton found in Greece is a fake. There is a cure for cancer - but the ADA keeps it from being used. As a child I grew up with many myths and stories - and I marveled then that adults actually believed them. As an adult I use my delete key.

Man believes what he wants to believe and disregards the rest... so says the song

Who, but Adventists, are the ones who propagate these outlandish tales? How many faulty conclusions have been drawn from some of EGW's statements about "amalgamation of man and beast" to include all sorts of impossibilities? Are her writing that she saw tall, majestic beings on another planet?

The apparent desperate need to authenticate the martyr complex that is embedded in Adventism is pandered to by hucksters to the willing and gullible. We have been taught many of these things with our mother's milk and some have not been able to shed these ideas and when someone comes along with tales, it only validates what they have been taught. Since these were often taught from the pulpit, shame on us for allowing such crazies to prosper and even be invited in the SDA pulpit.

Loren
Very much to the point. The largest crowd I ever saw in Pioneer Memorial Church at Andrews (1979) was Roland Hegstad's deconstruction of John Todd. Thousands of Adventists had fallen for his story, which on the face of it was so ludicrous that I remember howling with laughter the first time a friend at AU told me about it. Your genes would have had to be shaped by conspiracy thinking to believe it. (Both John Todd and Alberto Ribera were sponsored by Jack Chic, the Evangelical cartoonist.) Hegstad was promptly declared by Todd-ventists to be a Jesuit masquerading as an Adventist (together with Ford, Rae and Bacciocchi).

Some people have a conspiratorial mind-set, and to them anything goes if it supports their preconceived ideas. I think Elaine goes a bit far when she suggests that SDAs have cornered the market on crazy. As you point out, there are plenty of people of all ideological stripes who believe in crazy, whether it be the grassy knoll, area 51, Roswell aliens, golden plates and the singular wickedness of Roman Catholicism. But Adventists are very vulnerable, as the Todd debacle showed, since its eschatology essentially is a conspiracy theory hatched by anti-Catholic Protestants in the 19th century.

As you point out, there is a strange homeopathic dynamic at work here: the more diluted the evidence is, the stronger the potion is supposed to be.

Decades ago my grandparents were at a high-powered prayer breakfast and my grandmother told me that when Billy Graham came by the table next to hers and was talking with them that one of the individuals was an Adventist and asked Mr. Graham why he didn't keep the Sabbath and he answered: "But I do keep the Sabbath." There might have been other instances like this and I can see that Mr. Graham believed that he was keeping the Sabbath by doing the Lord's work as a preacher on that day and might have refrained from secular pursuits. From what I've read of Mr. Graham's ministry he tried to work with all the Christian denominations.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but years ago I had read in a travel book of a cathedral in Latin America that charged admission to see some of their treasures and they also had a room showing the instruments of torture and chains. Nowadays, there would be no need for the torture since they can drug individuals to keep them in line.

It would be nice to think SdAs could assemble and maintain a Wiki-type account of themselves.
http://www.niemanlab.org/2011/10/the-contribution-conundrum-why-did-wiki...
The fundamental principles by which Wikipedia operates are summarized in the form of five "pillars": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:5P
It could be a useful tool to prevent the denomination from disappearing into the void of disbelief.

Here we go again, making a list of silly errors and deceptions and calling them Adventist. So easy, and so pointless, especially since Adventists don't "have the corner on this stuff." (Fay Crombie's phrase.)

It's interesting was was left out. For example, some Adventists actually think the California constitution requires the state to sanction gay and lesbian marriage. (Has anyone here read that constitution?)

Oh, yes, how about those Adventists who say that scripture does not condemn homosexual behavior. (Has anyone here read Scripture?)

And this: the US constitution requires states to allow abortion. (Has anyone here...?)

And recently in a SPECTRUM article: "...the crucifixion of Christ came about through a union of church and state." (Surely this week's winner for the Careless Nonsense Prize.)

Loren Seibold ends his article with some apostolic counsel that bears repeating. “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear” (2 Timothy 4:3).

How true.

With people like Elaine and Bevin who needs Jesuits.

okay..so these stories are embarrassing...but we really do need to understand why they grow legs and never seem to die; not to do so is blatant denial. I remember in the 60's (and quite believing) the Catholic dungeon story; the one i heard took place in Edmonton. Alberta and at the time i was going to CUC, which was 100 miles south. They are always at our heels. I had many a nightmare over that. After I left Adventism, the dreams were still there but it was the Adventists who were cornering me in caves with only one exit

Like all religions, Adventism, too, is a mythic religion. What would religion do without myths?

Don't forget the story associated with the Proctor and Gamble logo. That story was passed on by some Adventist authority who had enough credibility that my in-laws threw out all their Procter and Gamble products.
http://www.barr-family.com/godsword/pg_logo.htm

...But the really big question is - why does the SDA denomination leadeship not actively oppose the nonsense that the more conniving SDA tout at youth evenings, camp meetings, and the young and naive suck up like it is mother's milk?

I second this question. The church could being its repudiation of this ilk with Walter Veith. His conspiracy theories are ridiculous, but I know of many young people who take his statements seriously. The illuminati is the hot conspiracy subject with fundamental young people because many of the rap stars are accused of being members, i.e. Jay Z is one of its leader, MJ's death was ordered by the illuminati as was Tupac's, etc.

What is amusing is that, for Illuminati conspirators who are not Adventist, Ellen White and the SDA church is part of the Illuminati.

Years ago, when I wrote my first article in the REVIEW about our family's experience having a gay son, I had the dubious distinction of being accused as a Jesuit, masquerading as an Adventist minister's wife!

I think these kind of tales abound in religions that depend on fear both to convert people and to keep them in line after they are converted.

Do you remember the one about a family traveling in a car who picked up a hitch-hiker? He told them, "Jesus is coming soon!" and then, like an angel, disappeared. I think this was c. 1970.

Carrol, if my memory serves me, such stories were at times printed in the Review citing "Angels Unaware."

Andrew Hanson said:

Don't forget the story associated with the Proctor and Gamble logo. That story was passed on by some Adventist authority who had enough credibility that my in-laws threw out all their Procter and Gamble products.
http://www.barr-family.com/godsword/pg_logo.htm
---------------------------------------------------------

This one was a while back. It was on a flyer on the church wall. I wouldn't say it was widespread, but I was suspicious of Procter and Gamble for well over a decade.
There was also one about Mercedes-Benz and its logo as well, told by a once-popular pastor here many years ago, who now has his own offshoot (not "conservative"--just different) church. He also implied the same for Toyota. (Oddly, I am told he turned against EGW as well.)
I am still cold towards Mercedes-Benz to this day because of it.

Anyone get the email after the Banda Aceh tsunami about the Christians who were forced to go to the mountains to worship because of the Islamic extremists a week before the disaster?

None of them ever think about all those believers who were washed away in the tragedy!

Nothing is wrong with miracles if they occurred. For me it's the conspiracy theories as well as some of the more made-up urban legends about miracles.
God does perform miracles.

Miracles are far more rare than the above stories would indicate.

A fevered imagination is built into the DNA of Adventism. William Miller's warped view of scripture (after all he was the Harold Camping of his day) gave birth to the movement. After its inevitable and spectacular failure, those who became the founders of the SDA church were those stubborn loyalists who insisted that William Miller was right. It was only the interpretation that was just a little off. St. Ellen even went on to claim that God had purposely misled William Miller by holding his "hand" over the actual truth. Even Miller admitted that there was no salvaging of his mistakes. What could be crazier than clinging to the basic correctness of a failed movement that even the leader of the movement repudiated?

The investigative judgment to which the church hierarchy clings is the still-born infant of a colossal mistake. The evangelical outreach of the church is designed to bring into the ranks of the church those who are most prone to believe conspiracies and wild theories. The Great Controversy and the Adventist view of prophecy are part and parcel of such theories.

Maggie - Thu, 10/20/2011 - 15:31
Pastor Seibold, I appreciate your impulse to distance yourself from the embarrassments of Adventism, but I fear that you and Rachel have yet to appreciate the extent to which the embarrassments (and, indeed, the unacknowledged tragedies) arise from the very nature of the beast, so to speak.

I think Adventism is like the mythical shirt that grows into the skin, and takes the skin with it when removed, like the Adventists cornering Fay in caves of her dreams.

IOW, I think your quest is doomed.

Ellen White: "She is piling up her lofty and massive structures in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be repeated."

What are you going to do with that?

There is nothing you can do with that.

You're a Seventh-day Adventist. You're stuck with it.
<><><><><><><><><><><>
Hi Maggie,
I believe that there are some progressives within the administration of the Seventh-day Adventist church who would like to see the church base its beliefs on the principles of the Bible and good common sense. The statement you quoted from Ellen White reflects the prejudice against Roman Catholicism that was prevalent in the culture that Ellen White grew up in. Some could look at these words and say "There's another example of a failed prophecy of Ellen White."

To distribute such statements, as I understand Pastor Ted Wilson is planning to do, could cause more harm than good. It's time to heal wounds rather than pry open old wounds.

To accuse Roman Catholics of "piling up massive structures in the secret recesses" to persecute Adventists, when Catholics, like Father Jim, know this to be a conspiracy theory just like the Jesuit infiltration theory; only makes us look like people who would believe anything.
And by the way, shouldn't we be trying to be reach Roman Catholics with the good news of the gospel?
Cheers,
Mike

Mike, if I am not mistaken you are in the Dominican Republic. Were you there in 1992 when the Faro was being finished. There were rumors of torture chambers for Sabbath keepers in it.

I was glad Loren wrote about this subject. Someone might do a PhD in conspiracy theory (or two) in Adventism. I became interested in the history of conspiracy reading about William Cobbett, who was an English soldier, journalist and pamphleteer of some influence in the early nineteenth century. His father taught him to read, and Cobbett worked for a brief time helping to edit James Barclay's Universal Dictionary in his teenage years. This gave him the idea of writing for a living, and he even wrote his own book of grammar. Cobbett became a soldier and went to Canada. Because of trouble-shooting and alienating his officers, he had to flee to France. He was there during the French Revolution and here latched onto theories about the Bavarian Illuminati, which made sense of history to him. Cobbett published and was influential in USA (after France). He helped publish Robison's Proofs of a Conspiracy in America and remained entranced with conspiratorial views. He subsequently had tremendous influence on the disadvantaged poor in England, since he edited newspapers that were distributed by the many thousands all over England. In looking further into the history of conspiracy theory, I came across the work of Daniel Pipes of Harvard. Recently, an Adventist psychiatrist who works in state prisons visited us, and he noted that many prison wardens were Masons, and he felt that the views of masonry supported the Adventist belief that the Catholic Church was the Antichrist, which is the basis of Adventist eschatology. This person would be a right-wing Adventist, and he did not appear interested in biblical arguments at all. People need to see conspiracy theories for what they are, even if adherents are well educated in other ways. Such views lead to paranoia. They have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. But many who believe in them are part of the extreme tail that wags the SDA church dog and which denigrates anyone who tries to teach Scriptural evidence.

Mike MacLennan, I do so wish it were so easy as reverting to "the principles of the Bible and common sense."

Ah...we are in so deep now, and the issues defy oversimplification, no matter how much we long for it, no matter how we long for this silliness to stop sticking to us.

Neither the Bible nor common sense eradicated chattel slavery in this country, far less a bloody civil war, but rather a growing moral sense rising up, almost in spite of the Bible, but, I would argue, indeed from the extended moral conversations the Bible invokes.

It's not as simple as being politically correct and not "criticizing" the Catholic church. The Catholic church has been a positive danger to its people, and it would be very unfortunate if it had the kind of political power it used to wield, just as the Adventist church has been a danger to its people and it would be very unfortunate if Ted Wilson had political power.

Human nature hasn't changed since Germany, and German Adventists, fell in love with Hitler. Nothing's changed. Nothing has given Adventism the moral high ground over Catholicism. Nothing.

Adventists love authoritarianism. It's true. They want to be the winners upon whom all history pivots, and they want to judge "the wicked." This is dangerous thinking!

Really, anyone with an hour to spare, find a soft chair in Barnes and Noble and read through Fr. Matthew Fox's recent book, Pope's War, and think about Adventism while you do!

But how can Adventists see the danger of authoritarianism when they are committed to authoritarianism, mired in authoritarianism in the deepest sense, when their prophet is authoritarian, when their God is authoritarian, and when their women can't wait to get a piece of the authoritarian pie?

Authoritarianism keeps us gullible moral children.

The Roman Catholic and SDA dynamics are so similar:

http://www.matthewfox.org/index.php/spotlight-book/

http://contemplativecatholicuk.blogspot.com/2011/07/popes-war-matthew-fo...

The witch's warts grow back as fast as Pastor Seibold can cut them off.

The problem is the witch, not the warts.

Authoritarianism is going to destroy civilization if enough cultural creatives don't unite and find a way through to a humane future. Adventists are so conditioned to be queasy and embarrassed when they hear the words "conspiracy theory" that they can't see what's right upon us.

Fr. Matthew Fox: "The hijacking of the name and teachings of Jesus in the name of Ecclesiolatry affects us all. Ours are not a time for keeping silent about the sins of organized religion. Ours are a time for starting over.

I think the great hierarchical structures of the world are doomed to fall, and soon. Adventism is one of them. Now is our time to think what kind of culture is nurturing and sustainable.

To wait for a sky hook rescue is world negation and dishonors our Creator, I believe.

Christian and Adventist mythos is not unusable, it's just that our level of consciousness has rendered our mythos absurd.

Mythos is all we have; we perish without vision. Please, Pastor Seibold, be careful with the word mythology; deal with the deeper issues; the time is late.

Thank you.

Posted by David Read - Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:47

There's obviously a civil war going on right now for control over the machinery of the church.

Bingo.

Whoever wins the war wins the infernal contraption that's about to go down anyway of its own rot.

What a thrill.

Have I told you lately that I love you, David? :-)

@Divine Sky, Carol & others,

Thanks for sharing some of your "urban legend" stories. I think my favourite was one I heard as a child of 8, in approx 1973. It went something like this:

A little girl was terminally ill, and her family & pastor gathered around her bed to pray for her. She passed out briefly, then awoke and told them of a vision she had just had while they were all there praying. She had seen Jesus and an angel, and they told her that she wasn't going to get well, but that she wouldn't sleep in the ground for very long - Jesus pointed to a number on a shining plaque on the wall and said "That is the year I'm going to come". The little girl looked at the wall, but couldn't make out the last digit in the year. The first three digits were "197". Thus Jesus was going to come before the year 1980.

Isn't it odd that most if not all "great" SDA myths have their origin in the U.S.? If we don't count Mission stories as myths from Third World countries, in light of their being published in the U.S., has anybody heard of "great" mythical SDA conspiratorial stories that have their source abroad?

The Y2K doomsday scenario. I was in Malawi on the eve of the new millennium and people there went about their day-to-day activities as usual prior to and after that otherwise non-event. What was it like among some SDA circles in the U.S.?

>Spectrum is a great deal more unorthodox as to core Adventist doctrines than, say, Walter Veith, whose conspiracy theories are just add-ons to, not contradictory of, Adventist doctrine.<

Bwahahahaha, snort, snuffle, let me catch my breath! Are you serious, David Read? Do you even know some of the absolute idiocy that Veith and his followers teach? How many people they say are Jesuits? All the conspiracies they see behind the scenes? It's not even vaguely Biblical! Seriously, brother Dave, if you think that, you ought to check yourself in someplace. I'm not particularly fascinated by your creation science evidences, but I think your pursuit of them falls into the category of things Adventists can legitimately pursue. But how in ever-burning hades can you say that Veith is no farther from the center than Spectrum is? (and I'm assuming you mean here the editorial group, the official articles, not the wacky rants from people like Faye and Maggie).

Geo is spot on.

Veith within orthodox Adventism? Makes absolute sense only if one is a sufferer of paranoid traits.

Adventists w/ progressive attitudes simply want to not be rejected for their beliefs, which they defend in that hope exclusively--NOT to purge others nor to make any beliefs into the sole definition of Adventism.

Some years ago - a gentleman made the camp meeting rounds purporting to be a "geologist" who was not allowed to get his "doctoral" degree in physics (?) because of the "prejudice" of the "university establishment." His theory about the age of rocks purported to show that they could have been formed in 6,000 years. His whole story about the rejection of his thesis was high suspect - but his story was "evidence" that the earth really was 6,000 years old - and "worldly scientists" did not want to acknowledge it.

so then,

Thanks for the links. You are right, the entire link was priceless! Made my day.
Too bad few Adventists get to read and see how they are viewed by others. o Ted and his chohorts should be forced to read such comments. Maybe it would offer further thoughts on their great venture in New York.

Also, Tony, if only those "New York City" workers answering EGW's call to the cities would read your comments, they would much better have a grasp of the New Yorker's mind. Far from the nice, polite, and long-suffering Adventist cocoon.

"Is our answer a world-negating Sky Hook Rescue by an authoritarian God?"

!!!!

which came first?

religious gullibility?
or the talking snake?

if a "belief" can get people to accept that a guy could live underwater, without breathing for daze inside the belly of a fish....and live to be spit out....

then you can get people to believe almost anything!!! including that clay spittle on a blind guys eyes can heal him...or that some really important guys have been born of a virgin, with gods as their fathers, or that some really, really important guys have been raised from the dead!!!!

why shouldn't we believe? since many others before us have believed?

warning: if you really WANT to believe it all,
do not go here: http://pocm.info/
and don't get started here http://pocm.info/getting_started_pocm.html

So you don't believe the story of Jonas and the great fish?

I am glad to see that God gives you an account of how many miracles He does daily...

> it was inflammatory, not to mention defamatory<

Oh my, David, you never cease to entertain. This takes home the trophy for "most moronic thing said on the topic". It's defamatory, because someone doesn't believe something you wrote?—i.e. that you made up out of whole cloth, with no Bible or EGW to back it up? Really? Do you know what that word means? Actionable defamation, even though he didn't mention you in particular, but rather pointed it back to von Daniken origin? I would hate to have to take legal advice from you. "Your neighbor said he doesn't accept your political point of view? Defamation! He thinks your religion is wrong and his is right? Sue him!" Can we point back to all the callous, unfeeling personal insults you've thrown at people here? The people you've labeled heretics and told they shouldn't be part of the church? This didn't even mention you - and you're not the only person who's advanced this theory. Isn't it interesting what thin skin the most angry attackers have?

Not to put too fine a point on it: grow up.

John

You obviously have been seriously injured by your encounter with Adventist that has made all Scripture toxic. That is very sad. It seems a similar experience has lead Aage to become an agnostic--but an agnostic with a fair but critical mind and pen. He is a joy to read. Your contributions are like a screech on a chalk board.

The basic element of Scripture atest to

A Creator God
Man Created in the Image of God and given dominion
The fall of man and dominion assumed by Satan
The Christ Event--The finished work of Christ to validate the New Covenant
Redemption by believing faith in the necessity and sufficientcy of the life, death, resurrection, and installation of Christ on the Right hand of the Father
The return of Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords
A New Creation established on the finished work of Jesus the Christ.
A new heaven, a new earth, a restored man.

The history of the Seventh-day Adventist Church is not pretty. But the finished work of Jesus/Christ
is Glory for me. It is my wish and my prayer that each of us bloggers can fine the Glory in the incarnation, Glory in the Cross, and Glory in the empty tomb.

The Gospel of John, The Letter to the Church in Rome, The Letter to the Church of Galacia, The letter to the the Ephesians, and the Revelation of St. John the Dvine spell out the Christian belief system.

I find it compelling and redemptive, meat in due season for the wounded soul. Tom Z

I looked at the link. Thank God no one dares put out brochures and runs seminars with those topics in the area where I live. I certainly wouldn't want anyone to think I was associated with such warped, weird promotional material and indoctrination. How on earth does this relate to Jesus? I think in some places and some ways Adventist truly is pseudo-Christian fringe sectarian

While we are on about fantasy, lets ,look at some of Ellen Whites fanciful things:

1.Christ had older brothers and sisters.
2.Lucifer rebelled in heaven, but was forgiven, and tried to be good for a short time before rebelling again.
3.In 1844 Christ moved from one apartment to another.
4.The thief on the cross had actually heard Christ preach when he was younger.
5.Adam and Eve were 9 foot tall.
6.Heaven is through the Orion stargate.
7.God has an All-Seeing Eye.
8.We are meant to channel light from heaven, through our bodies and in to our homes.
9.She had an accompanying angel that she was constantly in contact with(otherwise known as a spirit guide, or a familiar spirit), that told her things that were not biblical, or did not come to pass.
10.Christ grew up on a farm outside of Jerusalem where he played with the animals.
11.Tall men live on jupiter.
12.She met Enoch on a planet(she plagiarized this from Joseph Smith).
13.She was the lesser light pointing to the greater light(The moon never points to the sun, and this is actually a Masonic belief and is not found in the bible).
14.Vegetarianism is biblical.
15.Satan has flesh.
16.that skull size and shape shows a persons intellect and/or character. Apparently Satan had a skull shape that was evil.
17.The tower of Babel was built to escape another flood.
18.When Satan appreared to Christ, he claimed to be the angel that stayed Abraham's hand from sacrificing his son.
19.Herod put an old tattered robe of a king on Christ.
20.Jesus fainted 3 times under the cross.
21.Christ's bones were broken in the crucifixion.
22.We can not be sure of our salvation.
23.Obeying the 10 commandments will earn God's favour.
24.Paul learned the gospel from other men.
25.Eating flesh meats will make you give in to your carnal desires.
26.It is a sin to be sick(Ellen was always sick, she must have been a big sinner).
27.The Sabbath is the seal.
28.Enoch visited Sodom before the flood.

And the list goes on and on! Actually the more I look at it, the more I realize Adventism seems just as wacky as Mormonism with all the crazy extra canonical nonsense Joseph Smith wrote as well.

No wonder the Church is riddled with made up stories, they learnt it from the great prophetess herself.

Then there is a whole other list you could write with all the rules and laws Ellen White came up with. I remember getting belted when I was a kid for kicking a soccer ball on sabbath....thanks for that EGW!

getting belted when I was a kid for kicking a soccer ball on sabbath....thanks for that EGW!

I studied at our school in Collonges, France, back in the 60's.....every sabbath the whole school after lunch would take a long walk-hike up the Saleve, the mountain behind the school...just a nature walk for the exercise and fellowship....

in beautiful cow fields at the top with amazing views over Geneva, we used to have a singspiration, and occasionally somebody would bring a soccer ball to kick around....no sides..no score...no aggressive sporting, just kids working off steam and exercising in nature....but one week the College Prez made an announcement at obligatory chapel...no more soccer balls for sabbath exercise.....

why? some of the kids from Calif had written to their parents bragging about how liberating an experience it was, but some parents flew over just to reprimand the administration with quotes and threats from EGW.... who reached out from the grave and again managed to change everything from an exuberant, attractive, uplifting social Christian experience into mournful, reclusive SADventism.!!! and we were all forced to give up our soccer balls on sabbath.

(how's that for screeching on the blackboard, Tom? "seriously injured by your encounter with Adventist that has made all Scripture toxic.".... not all, mostly the Old Test which is admittedly replete with lottsa bad stuff)

heres the view from L'Ecole Adventiste du Saleve (now purporting to be "universite") up to the infamous "Tache Blanche" the "white spot" on the Saleve behind the school
http://gprc.free.fr/sitevol/voler-france/alpes-nord/saleve/1-saleve-du-s...

(infamous because tho its in France somebody whose identity must remain anon for legal reasons may have caused an international incident by painting a Swiss flag on it once with water soluble stain which was promised to wash off in the first good rain...but didn't )....

note the almost mile high limestone formation composed of gigazillions of tiny marine animals and their calcareous shells sacrificed by Nature, Noah, or the Intelligent Designer mega years ago just to make a vertical mile of rock layers with delicious grass on top for happy alpine bovines to produce "la vache qui rit" Gruyere.

heres the pasture which is these days (not on Sabbath) used for giving new daffynishion to the Goldsteinian suggestion to the unChosen to "go jump off a Cliff".
http://www.pandabytes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/img_5550.jpg

Note lake Geneva and its jet d'eau and the Jura Mt range on the horizon (the fossils contained gave the name to the Jurassic epoch, that 150 day period while Noah was fighting seasickness, shoveling excrement and battling the flood while the limestone layers were being laid down and the horny dinos were amalga-mating.... the resulting ruckas may be why Noah had to thro them all off the ark to be buried under the iridium layer).

(don't blame me...I'm just passing on what I heard)

Why not a talking cow? There was a talking serpent and a talking donkey straight from the Bible, so who's not to believe?

Robert,

Maybe its just 2 Adventists missionaries dressed up in a Cow suit lol

Adventists should not be characterized by the myths of a few. Mythology exists in every religion. Each person should read the Bible for themselves and develop a personal relationship with Christ.

John...

It's a "mission story", right? I'm not an anthropologist but am interested enough in the subject of the differences in the worldview of the members of some societies from that of moderns or post-moderns. IMO, the typical mission story doesn't count as myth or miracle in the sense we commonly understand what they describe. What do you think?

Half-truths, white lies, & mission stories.

Where were you on July 20, 1969?

I was working at a defunct wood factory for the summer to help pay for my tuition at a SdA boarding prison that has now joined the wood factory in defunctness..

The Maintenance Man was left in charge and fulfilling his Barney Fife responsibilities that Saturday night stopped by to make sure all were present and accounted for.

While watching Neil Armstrong he stated that he didn't believe the moon landing because EGW said God wouldn't allow "sin" to contaminate the universe.

(However, he believed it was okay to watch Petticoat Junction but not Green Acres because Eva Gabor was too risque.)

C'est la poo, Jean Alfke.

Divine Sky:

It's a sin to be sick; that one always puzzled me; seems that the irony was lost on her.

Alas a kid I was told that the sun always comes out on sabbaths, even if just momentarily, even if other days of the week are overcast. My brother at age 7 wascahallenged toe prove it and marked it on the calendar. Clouds during the week if it was predominantly cloudy. But sun on sabbath if even only briefly! He sincerely believed he had proved the point. I saw how 'stastics' can be used to 'prove' a cherished idea!

Alas a kid I was told that the sun always comes out on sabbaths, even if just momentarily, even if other days of the week are overcast. My brother at age 7 wascahallenged toe prove it and marked it on the calendar. Clouds during the week if it was predominantly cloudy. But sun on sabbath if even only briefly! He sincerely believed he had proved the point. I saw how 'stastics' can be used to 'prove' a cherished idea!

I think the question about SDA myths coming out of areas other then the USA would be hard to verify as to the SDA missionary presence from the USA and their influence. SDAism is a USA twist on Christianity.

John

An interesting history. But the bottom-line is: It is easier to shoot the bull than it is to rope a steer!"
P.S. I was a farmer.
Tom Z.

It irks me when people cannot conceive that there may be other reasons for leaving the faith, besides the one, that you obviously had to have been 'hurt'. When you try to say that there are other reasons, the conversation ends and there is a quick exit, for fear of being tainted

I would like somebody ...to write an article for Spectrum analyzing what it is about this country that makes it so vulnerable to this kind of kooky thinking.....

maybe its simple.

wasn't our nation founded by "believers"?.... who had been taught
.........TO BELIEVE THE UNBELIEVABLE,
such as snakes and donkeys can talk and that, only using primitive hand tools, Noah could build a wooden boat out of extinct gopherwood, sooo big that 2 pairs of animals (or 7 if they were edible to Gods favorite tribe) , meaning.....
.....................ALL THE ANIMALS OF THE WORLD could fit inside
and get along for almost a year breathing their own exhaust...... and NOT EATING EACH OTHER.
(except for that time that the horny dinos started amalga-mating, rocking the boat so badly that Noah had to throw them all overboard, thus causing the extinction of the dinos back around 3400 BC
etc
etc
etc

and by now the gene for gullibility and rumor mongering has become embedded in our national psyche and our grocery checkout lines.

btw....some of the rumors about area 51, Groom lake, China Lake are based on fact!!!
back in the late 60's I used to fly from LL up rte 395 right over Edwards AFB, at 10,000 ft above to avoid the traffic area, maybe doing 150 mph in a Cessna 180 on the way to ski at Mammoth Mt, and on one occasion saw a pencil thin aircraft nobody had ever seen....passing me two miles below on the runway like I was backing up....huge flames burning out the back as the "blackbird" rocketed up out of sight ahead of me at a 60 degree angle!!! ....... I called the tower:

"Edwards, Cessna 4622Bravo, ah, was that the new Blackbird? I'm still at 10 thou, 10 north now clear your area taking 395
response:
"ah, 4622Bravo... what you did not just see is no longer in your area and will not affect your traffic. Good Day".

BAck in those days we could fly OVER area 51 (Groom Lake) and China Lake, a munitions depot (2 miles above) by calling to Air Traffic Control and claiming it was on our route...and I saw enormous buildings and extremely long runways. Much later, '80's, I brokered a house to a retired ATC controller who had been stationed out of Lancaster..CA, .with control of all airspace between LA, LV, and SFO....and he told of watching on radar as a giant blip not in his control painted out of Groom lake, climbed to 40,000+ feet, then broke up into two blips, the large one (apparently a mother plane?) turning back toward Groom, and the small one heading out over the pacific at unbelievable mach numbers.....so maybe the Aurora does exist!!!

so our own gov'mnt helps fuel our curiosity, need to know, and possibly our national gullibility with its secrets.

even the ruddy Brits may be taken in too!!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2006/jun/24/freedomofinformation.usnews

Also John I would expect you to know that our nations was not founded by believers as you describe. They were largely Deists and liberal protestants certainly not the Fundamentalists you describe.

That may be, but those people still weren't the thought leaders behind building the American nation, so it's questionable whether they should be considered "founders," despite what Michelle Bachmann and co. would like to think.

"Those people still weren't the thought leaders behind building the American nation."

Not sure who you meant, but Jefferson, Franklin, Adams were most certainly some of the most important founders of this nation, all Deists. Jefferson is famous for his own Bible, where he cut out all the supernatural acts and left the teachings of Jesus:
Wise man. If only those were the definition if Christian, how different it would be!

A few wise sayings of Bertrand Russell:

"The most savge controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way. Persecution is used in theology, not in arithmetic."

"One is often told that it is a very wrong thing to attack religion, because religion makes men virtuous. So I am told; I have not noticed it..."

"So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence."

"Every single bit of progress in human feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or every mitigation of slavery....has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world."

So John Mark, if someone doesn't believe in God, but adores nature and helping others and gets a great deal of satisfaction in their life from communing with nature and making a difference in the lives of those less fortunate, and is happy to enjoy the moments they have without concern for eternity --you would tell them they are not really happy, because they haven't thought through the implications of their belief system?

Think about it a minute....shouldn't take much longer than that. The implications of fully thinking through theism are much more dire. The problem of Evil alone is enough to drive one crazy.

Aage

I can't locate my post. But it certainly didn't intend to imply "hurt". I thought disgust.

I left because of multiple factors none of which included "hurt"

1. The scholarship of Number, Rea, McAdams, Veltmann, et al.

2. The hurt the Church put on Des Ford, Frank Kinettel et al

3. I was a member of the Board at the time. I voted No. (The point of pressure was to get the President to resign so they could get a patsy in place to do their bidding.

I just couldn't have my name connected with that kind of Chicago politics.

Since then, I have had conference presidents and union conference presidents in my home as guests, one for an entire weekend. We had serious, friendly, productive conversations. It seems they can be rational
until it comes to voting. Then party politics takes over. Talk about multiple personalities!

I remain a strong proponent of the Gospel with Jesus Christ my Lord and Master.

Tom Z

Some of you never cease to amaze me. Someone warns us back from a problem we all know is true, and what do we get? "Your Friend" (who isn't anybody's) says that we shouldn't say it out loud because it embarrasses the church, and how shameful that a pastor would actually talk about this idiocy even though it is seeping out of every crack of the denomination. Like the stomach sick that you spew over anyone who disagrees with you is somehow encouraging and redeeming, YF? Holy barfbag, man, even if you're right, you're a pretty one to be talking about others embarrassing the church. Especially when you're hiding behind a pseudonym.

But does the left appreciate it, those who don't like the status quo? Rather than saying to the author "thanks for moving us to a common sense center," they howl, "why are you trying to make nice about Adventist stupidity? There is nothing you can do about it. You're a Seventh-day Adventist. You're stuck with it." So why are you here, then, if there's nothing that can be done? To sound superior? Not working: you're still here with the rest of us, still sitting on your own diaper. I guess once you evacuate your jowls, you feel better.

You are a precious bleedin' lot, aren't you?

Perhaps the biggest myth that the laity and leadership colluded in was that Ellen White was a prophet. I have read, and continue to read, countless times that she did not describe herself as such. Would her writings have been less relevant or inspirational without the prophet appendage? A theology that identified the remnant church as having the spirit of prophecy, necessitated a prophet, thus as Loren so aptly stated, "They are introduced to bolster certain interpretations of the Bible".

While I am quite comfortable with many of the writings of Ellen White, I am convinced that her elevation to the status of prophet was the single greatest mistake our church ever made. 150 years later, and we still can't get past this.

Maybe she is, maybe she isn't; it shouldn't have mattered, but we made it matter, and the church has been at war with itself ever since.

"Not all our myths are so benign."

Amen, Had it Harold!

I did not leave Adventism because of hurt or being treated badly - although I know of people who have.

I appreciate a number of values that I learned in Adventism, but are not 'owned' by it.

A pursuit for authenticity and integrity took me beyond Adventism.
A keen interest in seeking wisdom,insight and knowledge without having to always be self-censoring when it wasn't kosher took me beyond Adventism.
A valuing of relevancy took me beyond Adventism.
A discovering of grace and moving to a values approach to life and being wearied of the Adventist rule-based preoccupation took me beyond Adventism.
A love of healthy community took me beyond Adventism.
A desire to live freely without multitudes of baggage and traditions took me beyond Adventism.
An appreciation of a variety of cultural expressions took me beyond Adventism.
A weariness of poor quality thinking, conspiracy thinking, and arrogant thinking took me beyond Adventism.
A valuing of quality attitudes and action regarding social justice and environmental care took me beyond Adventism.
An experience of Adventist politics and poor treatment of many took me beyond Adventism.
My crap detector went off so much I needed to leave Adventism.
My understanding of Jesus led me beyond Adventism.

I learned of many great values and ways of living fully and authentically and spent a lot of time and energy in doing what I could to build up my church and church community. But eventually there is a time to move on to where I can contribute the most and to be free of an environment that didn't resonate and often put in the hooks to drag me down and into conformity.

Also, it became increasingly an embarrassment to be associated with Adventism. All this doesn't deny the good and the best values I learned, but for me there came a time for moving on into fullness of life, letting go of the old things that no longer served me, that I no longer believed in, and that held me back. It wasn't about "running away from" but "moving into" that characterized my transition. Goodbye caterpillar - hello butterfly!!!

@Joselito - When we were in Singapore and Bob was collecting stories for the mission quarterly (still used in much of the world), he heard this tale in either Sabah or Sarawak: A man traveled to a distant village to preach the gospel. The people were so interested and kept asking him more, and he stayed too late. Halfway back to his village, darkness fell, and it was pitch-black. Knowing that there were chasms and ravines, not to mention wild animals, between him and home, he was afraid to go on in the dark. So he prayed and asked God to send him a light. To his surprise, fireflies began coming from every direction and hovered in a cloud right in front of him. He could see just a step ahead and as he moved forward, the fireflies led him back to his village, and then dispersed. We decided not to put that story in the mission quarterly, but Bob thinks God uses such means to speak to simple, uneducated, superstitious people, but not to educated and sophisticated ones. Wdyt?

I quite agree with you, Dick. As a Christian and a Bible believer, I believe that there are miracles, and have even seen unusual things happen that I give God credit for. Carrol, I love the story about the fireflies, and I also tend to believe that God may well do special acts for people when they are still in spiritual infancy to give them faith to move forward. What I'm talking about in this article are stories that are simply self-serving. And, they have the added burden of showing no evidence of being true, and often evidence of being lies! I believe God wants to do miracles for us, but I can't imagine God wants us to be gullible. There is, after all, 1 John 4:1: test the spirits. John makes the test whether they acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord, but I'd broaden that to mean that even if the story has to do with the Christian religion, but if it has nothing to do with actually advancing Jesus and instead advances a person's or an organization's agenda, then that "spirit"has failed the test. How can speculating about the Catholics having torture machines in their basements advance the cause of Jesus' love and mission?

Josh Adamson,

You spoke for many of us. For all those reasons I had to part company with Adventism, also.

Congrats on the coming b-day Elaine. I am glad you are at peace with the grave. I would not be without the blessed hope, and have not been when I was without, this is why I am passionate about the issue. Here's to hoping God will give you a happy suprise on the ressurection day.

@Carrol... the first thing that came to my mind with regard to the fireflies was folklore, a bedtime story told to children by their parents.

I can feel an idea for a website coming up: An official Adventist Mythbuster website like http://www.snopes.com - perhaps we can call it snopessda.com. It would actually be incredibly helpful.

John Mark,

Thanks for the good wishes. As to surprises: God never gives an unwelcome surprise, does he? If it's either heaven or hell, God is mighty particular and if I'm rejected, I wouldn't want to live in such a place anyway.

Klimber--

I think you're confusing mythology w/ simple false stories of the kind described here.

The "alarm" here is against the same danger you name, i.e., people not differentiating between fact & fiction. Since this vulnerability is a human trait, should we not try to enlighten other Adventists? I don't see any hammering away at our church, rather it is truth-telling & the truth shall set us free.

Aage

I received a letter from the cookie monster prior to the Board meeting. A major point was that Dr. Knittel spoke against the book Messages to Young People. I replied. That Dr. Knittel's point was that Messages to Young People was a selected compilation from the extensive writings of Ellen White and reflect more of the mind-set of the compilers than Ellen White. I went on to say: That if someone were to do a compilation entitled Messages to Cooks and Bakers---they would be in far deeper trouble
with the Lord than Dr. Knittel. I received no response. The slogan "Little Debbie has something for you" In the red neck south has more than one meaning. /something along the line of Debbie does Dallas! Tom Z

It seems like a slippery slope indeed to condemn certain Adventist myths and not others. How interesting that those on the chopping block are often put there by the privileged mainstream, seeking to police the less educated and less privileged in their ranks?

There is a certain arrogance in believing that your set of myths are superior to another's, because it doesn't acknowledge to what great extent one's beliefs are an accident of the time and place of their birth, and are shaped by the social rewards of holding such beliefs.

I was born into Adventism, and accepted as "truth" the mythos of the incarnation, the resurrection, and the Second Coming, along with the entire set of peculiar Adventist myths. This was statistically extremely unlikely - demographically, it was more probable that I would be a Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, or Muslim. Rarer still, it was my fate to be born an emancipated woman: I was given the finest education available and all the tools I require for self-sufficiency and independence.

And most unlikely of all, my rational faculties, my sense of justice, and the availability of other options enabled me to leave the church of my birth. But what I left behind was a conviction there is only one true way of telling the story of God(s) and Man. I didn't leave behind the deep love and respect I have for those who believe differently, even when I am sure those beliefs are "false." I didn't leave behind my understanding of the very human need to make myths, as ridiculous as they may seem to those not born to them, or in need of them.

The story of God(s) and Man is a love story. The many myths develop from love unrequited, love rejected or spurned, love feared, doubted and misunderstood. But the story is always and everywhere, still about love.

Esther wrote,
"It seems like a slippery slope indeed to condemn certain Adventist myths and not others."

Since when?! That'd mean we can't denounce a John Todd, who deceived many Adventists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Todd_(occultist)

So yes we look at the OT critically guided by 2 most foundational and 10 second most foundational commands and try to separate principle from policy. Alden Thompson talks a good deal about this in one of his books, I don't recall the name. So in a sense you're right that we pick and choose in the Torah, but it's certainly not arbitrary.

**************

This was from Thompson's book, "Inspiration." The whole Torah is viewed through the lenses of the one, "Do unto others as you would have them do to you," the two, Love to God and neighbor, which is from the Torah itself, and the ten, which further extrapolates those broad principles. Paul made some sort of differentiation in the Torah for NT Christians, when he said,"Circumcision nor uncircumcision means nothing, but keeping God's commands is what counts." (1 Cor. 7:19)

Additionally, Jesus spoke of the OT, and Moses specifically, as pointing to him. See John 5 and Luke 24. Interesting then, that the goal of the OT in the eyes of Jesus was to point us to faith in him, and living a life of love that reveals such faith in him. Against such, there is no law...as it says in Galatians.

Thanks...

Frank

Uhhh,,

The article and thread brought this list to mind....

THESE ARE ACTUAL LINES FROM MILITARY PERFORMANCE APPRAISALS OR O.E.R.s(OFFICER EFFICIENCY REPORTS)

1. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
2. Got into the gene pool while the lifeguard wasn't watching.
3. A room temperature IQ.
4. Got a full 6-pack, but lacks the plastic thingy to hold it all together.
5. A gross ignoramus -- 144 times worse than an ordinary ignoramus.
6. A photographic memory but with the lens cover glued on.
7. A prime candidate for natural deselection. Bright as Alaska in December.
8. One-celled organisms out score him in IQ tests.
9. Donated his body to science before he was done using it.
10. Fell out of the family tree.
11. Gates are down, the lights are flashing, but the train isn't coming.
12. Has two brains; one is lost and the other is out looking for it.
13. He's so dense, light bends around him.
14. If brains were taxed, he'd get a rebate.
15. If he were any more stupid, he'd have to be watered twice a week.
16. If you give him a penny for his thoughts, you'd get change.
17. If you stand close enough to him, you can hear the ocean.
18. It's hard to believe that he beat out 1,000,000 other sperm.
19. One neuron short of a synapse.
20. Some drink from the fountain of knowledge; he only gargled.
21. Takes him 1-1/2 hours to watch 60 minutes.
22. Wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.

@hopeful,
I was responding to some of the postulates of the author around SDA myths. No, I'm not confusing the two. I'm clear what a myth is and what purpose it serves. I'm also clear of what "simple false stories" are. Who makes the decision or has the authority to ultimately decide what is myth, particularly when seen through the prisms of one's own cultural biases? What to some is Truth, to others it's reduced to the status of myth (like those who chose to believe the entire Bible is a collection of Jewish myths!).

The bottom line is that neither "approach" (myth making, false stories) has saving power. Jesus IS Truth. Anything or anyone outside of that is vacuous rhetoric at best. And yes, I agree we should perhaps try and "enlighten" those in the throws of fantasies and distorted facts. However, our primary focus is to simply present truth as The Holy Spirit reveals it to us. What I see in this thread is the habitual recycling of hole-punching the SDA church and the obligatory "microscope test" that can exponentially augment the size of very tiny particles. You know, the professional SDA Micro-managers!

Can anyone track this one down...At this years Annual Council Elder Jackson talked about a man who died...people continued to pray for 6 hours and the man came back to life...in fact he was in church the next Sabbath.

How many heard the myth that Ellen White actually predicted the Trade Towers attack in her prophecies?

back in the late 60's in Anchorage, Alaska, I was "paying" for sleeping inside the SDA church school bus by mowing their lawn and cleaning the church while looking for work...... the old guy who lived next to the church and an sda family befriended me, and showed me around Anchorage, including the house where the "official miracle" had happened....

it seems that one terribly cold winter, nobody had heard from the old lady of the miracle house during a prolonged blizzard that blew in piling up against doors and windows. The Review actually printed the story as a miracle after only partially verifying the story. The elderly lady apparently ran out of kerosine for her stove, and was unable to get out of the house due to the snow, and had no phone, so she prayed for God to send help.

She swore to the authorities the following morning that an angel from god came down from the sky, brought her some kero, restarted her fire, and left again up into the sky, having saved her life. No footprints were seen in the snow later, the door had to be shovelled out for the neighbors to get to her early the next morning, all due to wind blown snow, so her story held up, and was certified enuf to make it into the Review and Herald, a copy of which I was shown by the SDA family which believed in the miracle.

But the old guy who had befriended me, by the end of the summer, admitted to me that he had never told anybody about his help in this matter, after the incident having been reported as a miracle.
He told me that he had become worried about the elderly lady, and knowing she had a kero stove, he filled a jug, put on his WW2 white winter outfit, white mukluks and shoveled his way out his own door.

But arriving at her two story house, the door was so badly snowed in, he just snowshoed up to the 2nd story porch and entered that window, his face all covered with snow and frost....

then he "came down from the sky" (the 2nd floor), started her stove, told her he would call the authorities, but to continue his mission of mercy elsewhere, left quickly...back up" into the sky", climbed out the 2nd floor window, and his prints musta drifted full.

early morning when he went to approach the fire dept, they told him the news about the miracle angel from heaven....apparently in the morning somebody else had gone to her house, heard the story, and the news was all over town.......the guy told me that after that, he just "forgot" to tell anybody. Especially after the Review shortly thereafter printed it as a certified miracle.

a few years later my father could have used a miracle....just a second or two...as the 16 year old who drove thru an intersection right in front of AUC was said to be doing at least 40 mph.....over 50 feet per second......if God had just influenced the kid to arrive at that intersection one second earlier, or my dad one second later, that 50 feet difference might mean that he could be retired from teaching in the SDA Browning Memorial school instead of buried a few miles away.

Just these two stories leave me suspicious of miracles. And the kind pastor at Dad's funeral actually increased my angst about God and miracles when he told me....
"dont worry son, if your dad wasn't ready, the Lord would not have taken him"

(ever since, I've worn my seat belt, I drive defensively, and try not to be divinely perceived as "ready")

Certainly. Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Jehovas Witness Movement was a member of the Second Adventist Movement from 1870-1874, and was heavily influenced by their teachings. The SDA Church came out of the Second Adventist Movement as well, a small group of them accepted the sabbath and broke away, thus becoming the Seventh Day Adventist Movement.
A lot of the basic beliefs held by the JW's today, are actually a snap shot of what the early Adventists taught, which was Arianism.

Havn't you ever wondered why they have similar teachings, like:
Soul sleep
Annihilation
Jesus is Michael
The year/day principal
Historicism
Christ was a created being
etc etc....

John, that's quite an Angel Story! Thought I'd heard 'em all!

I'm sure the pastor at your father's funeral meant well, but that would be like a bomblet in a person's brain, I can imagine - and that on top of the split-second timing that took his life. That's so sad.

My dad's pastor told him, "Your father is burning in *eternal* hellfire!"

Now, aren't you glad you were raised Adventist?

Regarding high- & low-class words, the Italians have La Dolce Vita, the French have La Joie de Vivre, and Americans have...Happy Hour...Monday Night Football...help me out here....

You are bang on the money identifying them all as gnostic movements. Ellen Whites writings and teachings are very gnostic in nature. She was shown a lot of stuff that cannot be supported by scripture. I see no difference between her and the modern day Pentecostal prophets, all have their own accompanying angels telling them things that are bogus. The 6 main religions that came out of America are all gnostic by nature.

Bevin, you noted several days ago (sorry to play catch-up on the weekend!) that:
When someone from the pulpit makes an absolutely ludicrous claim[,]...the leadership [should] stand up ... and point out the problems with similar claims.

Interestingly, way back in the dark ages of about 1970 or '71, while I was a theology major at WWC, the Ministry Magazine -- which came as a free subscription to declared Theology majors -- came out with a detailed refutation of the NASA Discovers Joshua's Long Day story. As I recall, it was done well, and respectfully (as the account had already been promoted from many Adventist pulpits), but clearly came down on the side of 'checking with experts' before accepting something that seemed 'miraculous'.

I wonder who the editor(s) was/were? I wonder what organizational machinations may have been experienced to bring such a flagrantly critical (Praise Be!) article to press? I wonder if Ministry still provides any 'clarification' on contemporary forms of such, or related kinds of myths? Or if they contribute to the distribution of such things among Adventist pastors? (Seems I changed major a couple times before graduation.)

I have had several occasions to discuss the incredible, and unsupportable nature of the claims inherent in this story with other church members and speakers -- usually after hearing it presented either from the pulpit, or under guise of a devotional presentation to some group. And over and over I have been amazed at how willing some folks are to excuse their own lack of critical thinking, by saying something like, 'What do you know about NASA's computers?'

Perhaps someone seeing this has access to an archive of old Ministry copies. I really wonder who wrote it, and if they might be coaxed to comment? Somehow, I associate the article with the February edition, but I vacillate on whether it was 1970, or 1971.

Mike Fiedler

http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1970/November/joshuas-long-day-i...