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Sharpton the Bigot? A Response to Mitt Romney
Here in the United States, it seems as if the election cycle never ends. No sooner than an elected official is sworn in, his or her opponents begin their nasty usurpation quest. They and their supporters seem to do everything in their power to thwart the plans of the person in office, as they seek every opportunity to pounce on trivial shortcomings–whether real or imagined. For those of us who have become frustrated with the constant political posturing and endless campaigning, this is more than a “silly season” it is a pilotless runaway train.
The prize catch in the plutocrats’ political game is the coveted position of POTUS. This election seems more intense than any other I’ve experienced. With the heightened level of excitement, an unwitting observer would assume that the presidential elections were taking place this year. In spite of muffled rumors of a coup, it is unlikely that anyone from the Democratic stable will challenge the sitting President, who has already stepped up his ongoing grass roots strategy and turned the lights back on in his huge campaign headquarters in Chicago.
And Then There Was One?
Republicans are less certain about a nominee. Some thought to have had a shot (e.g. Mike Huckabee and Haley Barbour) have bowed out for family or “spiritual” reasons. Others appear to have no real intention to run, but like the publicity and accompanying raise in speaking and appearance fees (e.g. Sarah Palin and Donald Trump). Then there are the influential extremists who only seem to care about their respective base (e.g. Michele Bachmann and Ron Paul). Among the more than a dozen contenders, the ones who many have hedged their bets on are proven moderates who are trying to reinvent themselves for Paul Ryan and the Tea Party, and who both just happen to be Mormon–John Huntsman and Mitt Romney.
Of the two, Romney is the one who is consistently ahead in the polls. Of course, this is not the first time he has been down this road. He appeared to have had a fighting chance in the last election cycle, before suffering humiliating defeats and retreating for the purpose of reinventing himself for this new battle. Interestingly, as the recent book Game Change reveals, one of the reasons for Romney’s failure was the Republican establishment’s belief that Mormonism is a cult. Because of this, while plastic-smile-posturing with the former governor during photo opportunities, many in the RNC refused to throw their weight behind him.
The Mormon Dilemma
Although the RNC would never even think about publically discussing the issue, Romney was given a chance to address anti-Mormon sentiments when certain words emanated from the mouth of an unwitting antagonist–Al Sharpton. Pulled into a fight he never planned for, Sharpton’s impulsive tirade had the professional accuser in the defendant’s chair. Now the judgmental fingers were being pointed at him by the bruised Republican presidential contender, who took pleasure in accusing the reverend of bigotry. Sharpton a bigot? That’s an interesting charge. But the former governor believed that the evidence was a “slam dunk!” And the media swallowed it–hook, line and sinker.
Sharpton’s crime? During a public debate with atheist, Christopher Hitchens, the Pentecostal preacher said, “As for the one Mormon running for office, those that really believe in God will defeat him anyway....” Of course, the statement has a context. In this debate that questioned the existence of God, Hitchens used the Mormon belief about the inferiority of Blacks as an argument to prove his thesis that God does not exist. Rightly or wrongly, it was to this that Sharpton was responding.
Bigotry or Truth?
Was the reverend’s statement bigoted? That can only be determined by his motive. He probably had an “Imus” moment where words escaped his lips before he could contain them, but is this a “hate crime” that deserves a public lynching? Well, let’s allow the facts to speak for themselves.
The Mormon church was founded on the basis of White supremacy. Joseph Smith believed that the Bible was flawed, and introduced a new book that buttressed the theory of European superiority over the African and the Indian. According to his teachings, dark skin was a sign that a person had committed evil deeds in a previous life, and were under continuous judgement and subject to perpetual servitude. With strange echoes of Hinduism, Smith relegated Blacks to the “Untouchable” class and taught that they will be slaves for eternity.
Smith’s successor, Brigham Young, had this to say about Blacks in the same year that Abraham Lincoln proclaimed the emancipation of slaves: “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so.”
A change in Mormon thinking was announced in June 1978, when chief prophet, Spencer Kimball, claimed to have received a revelation from God that Blacks were now acceptable to him. Mind you, according to church lore, God did not really want to change his mind about Blacks, but Kimball after much agonizing was able to convince him. If this isn’t racist and demonic, I don’t know what to call it!
Faith under Fire
In spite of the indisputable facts about the history of Mormonism and the content of their sacred books, Sharpton succumbed to media pressure and made a public apology to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in Salt Lake City. This just goes to show that in this age of political correctness and post-modern relativism, religious conviction has become passe. You can believe what you want, as long as you don’t articulate it openly. Belief is contained in the cerebral domain, and should never even try to invade the heart or manifest itself in actions much less words. There is no place for authentic living in this era of superficial existence.
I’m not sure if Sharpton was correct in making a general statement about all Mormons and their faith in God. I once had a Mormon neighbor who was one of the finest examples of a Christian I have ever seen. I never did discuss the issue of race with him, but if he accepts his church’s teachings about the superiority of Whites, he has embraced a demonic system that has nothing to do with the all inclusive God of the Bible.
When measured against the teachings of the Bible (my standard for evaluating Divine revelation), I can say without a doubt that Mormonism is a false religion. Further, if the Mormon’s god is one who has placed a perpetual curse on Native Americans and Blacks, he/she/it is not the God of the Bible. If anyone wishes to call this bigotry, so be it. However, I refuse to replace my belief in God and His Messiah with a secular pluralism that seeks to silence audacious faith.
I’m not sure if your faith has come under fire yet. When it does, how will you respond? Will you cower under the pressure of pluralistic political correctness or will you weather the storm? Will you allow others to besmirch your faith positions with accusations of bigotry, or will you stand for principle even if the heavens collapse around you. As you contemplate your response, always remember that “a tree is known by its fruit.”
Keith Augustus Burton is the Executive Director of Life emPowerment, Inc., a non profit organization promoting community cooperation and personal responsibility. He also teaches classes at Oakwood University and Florida Hospital College of Health Sciences.
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Sat, 09/08/2012
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San Diego Adventist Forum
Sigve Tonstad, MD, PhD, Associate Professor of Religion, Loma Linda
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Keith
We're stuck with the parents we have and with the family we have, even crazy uncle George. That's the way it is with religion, too, for most people. We grow up in the faith that's normative for our community, and few people turn against it because of the odd crazy doctrine they're stuck with. Adventists have to deal with a prophet who believed that 'some races of men' were the product of humans having had sex with primates. Mormons have to deal with more than one prophet who claimed that black people, as you point out, were punished with dark skin because they had participated in Satan's rebellion against God in Heaven. In addition to other beliefs that most people would characterize as truly weird. Jews and Christians have to deal with a God who is supposed to have gloried in genocidal crimes, according to the Torah.
I think we should leave the Mormons alone. Today's Mormons did not come up with the racist ideas that infest their scriptures any more than today's SDAs believe that blacks are half animals. These are the crazy uncle Georges of religion. It would be great if Mormons and Adventists would denounce their less attractive doctrinal features, but churches never do. The best we can hope for is that they ignore them and pretend they never existed, and I think that's the case with both Mormons and Adventists. And before Christians in general denounce the immoral accounts and teachings lodged in the crooks and crannies of the Bible, they have no business going after anybody else for essentially doing what they themselves are doing--pretending that the ugly stuff isn't there.
I do agree, Keith, that we should have the right to say that Mormonism, to us, is one weird religion, and that it goes against what we believe. They, of course, should be allowed to do the same with respect to the religious traditions they oppose.
Aage
Other folks' religion always sounds wierd and strange to us: "those primitive Baptists and Adventistt still believe in foot-washing," those "Holy Rollers" believe in dancing in the aisles and speaking in tongues," those Catholics worship Mary and believe in confessing to their priest," those crazies in Appalachia believe in handling poisonous snakes."
It will never stop until we recognize that ALL, repeat ALL religions are man-made. Groups of tribes, people who lived close, or were of the same gene pool, over a period of many years, perhaps centuries, began to formulate rules; who should be their priests and what type of sacrifices were to be offered, when and how to worship, and more. While the Hebrew Bible (remember, it was written exclusively by this one group) described themselves as the "chosen" whom God determined would be his official spokespersons and perform his wishes, whether it was killing entire tribes, or taking their lands and proclaiming as the new owners, or choosing "virgins" from the conquered tribes for their wives.
Now, when considering the story told by the Hebrews and adopted by Christians, how is their story more believable than the Mormons? How, and who can challenge its truthfulness? Yet all the Jews and Christians have adopted their one account as valid, true, and is inherently the story of their religious beliefs.
It's the perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black: a simple example that "repeat a lie long enough and eventually it will become "infallible truth." God help us to "see ourselves as others see us."
Elaine
When I taught at Marquette the School of Dentistry accepted 10 Mormon students in each class.
Each year they ended up in the top 10% of their class. While at Loma Linda I accept 2 of 6 Graduate students as Mormons they all ended at the top of their class. All were morally clean. They had a very strange eschatology not unlike that of Adventism. Of the flock of GOP candidates Mike comes across as head of the class. One needs to ask him how his end of the world view might impact upon his governance nationally and internationally. Morally, fiscally, and state governance is a positive. I knew Newt when he was an assistant professor in Carolton, Ga. Even then his arrogance exceeded his talents or abilities. He was the butt of the jokes of the University System of Georgai. He had the morals of a Neaderthal and the ego of a Donald Trump. Georgia can be justly proud of One U.S. Senator in recent times. Senator Sam Nunn. Tom Z.
I believe that Living Prophet Spencer Kimball received what he took to be a revelation from God in June of 1978 ,which he declared in September, that effectively curtailed the denomination's official prejudice against people of African descent.
True, as far as I know, the LDS people have not formally repuduated what they formerly said and did. But this is not how they do things.
Always having a Living Prophet who is understood to sometimes receive divine revelations, they can make needed changes in God's name as circumstances require without defending or decrying the past.
Even though it is not theologically persuasive to me, I concede that their way of doing things has some genuine administrative advantages. Bottom line: They figured out a way to change and we should applaud them for it. And they are at least as good in business administration as SDAs are in health care delivery.
I doubt that I'll end up voting for Romney. But that he is a LDS is not why.
You might look at this from a different angle. Perhaps Sharpton was not even thinking about color but about the god of this world according to Mormonism. Perhaps he was saying that believers in God the Creator would have a hard time voting for someone that believes in a Spiritualistic god. A man/god with his wives churning out spirit babies to fill up his heavenly kingdom.
I remember when a politician had to say he was sorry for stating that Mormons believed that Lucifer and Jesus were brothers. It wasn't the Mormons that demanded the apology but outraged Christians that didn't know that actually Mormons do teach that they are brothers.
Mormons are out in front regarding abortion and gay marriages. Both interfere with men becoming gods and women getting to heaven to produce those spirit babies that have to come to earth to be born.
Adventists have long been taught that near the End there will be a triangle of power in the religious world. Protestants, Roman Catholics and Spiritualists. I submit that the Spiritualists are Mormons.
Along with the crystal ball gazers and the others.
Visiting dear friends in Utah I made a trip to Salt Lake City to go to the Mormon Center to do some genealogy research. My hostess at breakfast said a prayer to "Heavenly Father" to please send my dead relatives to help me in my research. You can be sure I was saying a prayer to my Father in heaven to please protect me from the evil ones.
Knowing that so many fellow Adventists are very right wing Republicans - I'm wondering if they will vote for a Mormon.
From this distance removed, it looks like a Mormon President would fit the USA as well as does a Hindu for President of India.
Dave
Ellen White wrote "The General Conference in session is the highest authority of God on earth."
That statement is used much as the Mormon's use their "living Prophet".
By the way the primary difference between Mormon tme of trouble and SDA time of trouble is that the Mormon's intend to fight back! I had a Mormon friend in Scottsdale who was a B 17 pilot in WWII. he brought home a 50 cal. machine gun from off his scraped B 17. He also bought 2000 rounds of 22 cal. bullets for his pre-teen sons. He told me that he was most impressed with his bouble barreled shotgun.
He said, "He went into his backyard and stood 20 paces from an old ugly cactus and gave it both barrels. He said: "Tom, all I saw was green foam!" He also had his basement stocked with two years supply of food and water that he would keep fresh but using it and replacing the used portion on a regular basis.
This, of course, stems from the cruel lynching of Joseph Smith in Illinois.
Tom Z
A friend said, in response to the question, are you an Adventist, what do you think an Adventist is? When the questioner gave their understanding of who Adventists were, my friend said, I'm not one of those.
There are as many different kinds of Mormons as there are Catholics as there are Adventists.
Yes Donna
We had a Mormon PhD in Anatomy who didn't drink tea or coffee as required by the Mormon code but he drank Coke. He explained. He figured it out. It was not the caffeine it was the heat! Hot drinks were bad. Cold drinks o.k.
At leat SDA don't justify. My father-in-law while visiting us--took a coke out the the refrig. Betty always stocked it with coke before they visited. I said, Dad--He was 6 feet tall, 88 years old.-- be careful with that stuff it will stunt your growth and shorten your life. He said, Oh Tom go get yourself a glass of water and shut up. Tom Z
Elaine Nelson - how much do you get paid to post on here?
Ali
As an aside, Adventists used to believe that Jesus and Lucifer were "brothers" as well. The original SDA great controversy story was put together at a time when EGW and everybody else were anti-trinitarians. The reason why Lucifer became Satan, according to this story, was that he thought God favored Jesus over him. The implication was that both of them were created by God as 'siblings', and should be treated the same way.
Aage
Tom,
Always interesting reading...
To Anon who asked:
"Elaine Nelson, how much do you get paid to post on here?"
The Jesuits pay me well.
Elaine
Keith
Thanks for the interesting article! I enjoyed reading it and thinking about the implications in the upcoming political season.
We have many Mormons living and working in our area. The OR supervisor is Mormon and a really nice, good hearted guy who is very active in the community and always can be counted on to help in community wide projects. I have had many dealings with Mormons in my practice and they have always been very positive. While I think their theology is not what I believe, they have proved to me that "actions speak louder than words" and isn't that really what counts in life on this side of heaven?!?
Tom
You are a "story teller extraordinare"!!
Elaine
I didn't realize you were on the Jesuit payroll :>)
Aage
Always enjoy your balanced and measured perspectives!!
All the best
Fred
About a year ago I listened to a Romney speech in which he made the claim that the very DNA of Americans was what made us the type of people who step out, take risks and build a new world around us. This was based on the type of people that he imagined struck out for a new world centuries ago to build their future. This view also ignores those that were already here or were brought against their will which seems also to be a classic LDS view point.
Check out the official Mormon Website http://mormon.org/commandments/, and scroll down to the section defining their view of the 10 Commandments, and focus on the comment regarding Sunday.
Note, the quote below taken from that section:
"But Sunday, or the Sabbath, is a time to worship God and to give us a rest from our day-to-day obligations. After creating the earth in six days, God set the seventh aside as a day of rest and remembrance. On Sunday we can spend time with friends and family, visit the sick or lonely, spend extra time studying the scriptures and go to Church."
If we elect Mitt Romney or Jon Huntsman as the next President in 2012, considering their theological underpinnings, they will no doubt endorse the Sunday Law, since they view Sunday as the "Sabbath". Mormons take an even stronger position that most Evangelicals hold regarding Sunday worship, because most Evangelicals have the view that the Law as been done away with at the cross and is no longing binding on Christians. Whereas, Mormons do not believe that, in fact just recently , Glenn Beck, who is the most well know Mormon in the media, would not have his Mega Rally in Washington, D.C., on Sunday, because he viewed it as the "Sabbath". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoring_Honor_rally
And additionally, as a previous posted by Tom Zwemer, Mormons follow the lead of Brigham Young who endorsed the use of deadly force in the massacre of Native American Indians in Utah in the 1850's: http://www.irr.org/mit/blood-of-the-prophets-br.html, and as a whole are pro-gun ownership, in fact they recently passed laws where students can pack handguns on most Utah college campuses.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18355953/
The truth and nothing but the truth.
TruthWave
Whatever wave you're surfing, it's not the truth wave. It's nuts to suggest that ANYBODY in the US would ban the Jews from worshiping on Saturday, which is what a Sunday law would accomplish. Neither Mormons nor the hardest core Southern Baptist would propose such idiocy--and if they did, they would doom themselves to a life outside the pale. And to argue that today's Mormons are weaponizing their state in order to repeat Brigham Young's Mountain Meadows Massacre on a larger scale is pure fantasy. And Catholics don't have torture chambers ready for Seventh-day Adventists (few of them have heard of Adventists and those that have couldn't care less, from what I see).
Aage
"TruthWave" writes, above:
"If we elect Mitt Romney or Jon Huntsman as the next President in 2012, considering their theological underpinnings, they will no doubt endorse the Sunday Law, since they view Sunday as the "Sabbath"."
And a bit later:
"Mormons follow the lead of Brigham Young who endorsed the use of deadly force in the massacre of Native American Indians in Utah in the 1850's ... and as a whole are pro-gun ownership, in fact they recently passed laws where students can pack handguns on most Utah college campuses."
My reaction to the above assertions is that they are just plain ludicrous. Ludicrous! And, FWIW, I am very literate concerning Mormon doctrine and culture:
- I have an extensive library of books (which I have read BTW :-) ) on Mormonism, pro & con, including various perspectives on the Mountain Meadows Massacre (alluded to in the second quote of "TruthWave")
- I have formally studied Mormon doctrine (22 credits) at the LDS Institute of Religion adjunct to the University of Utah.
- I've lived in Utah for 35 years.
None of this, of course, makes my opinion right, just possibly credible. So let me then attempt to back up my assessment of "ludicrous".
Mitt Romney is a more observant Mormon than Huntsman. There was recent coverage in the Salt Lake papers essentially asking the question 'is Jon Huntsman really a Mormon'. But Romney was governor of Massachusetts, probably the most liberal state in the US and gave no whiff in that context of interest in implementing anything as overtly religious and draconian as a Sunday Law. But more importantly, both are first and foremost - politicians. They must play to the middle of the electorate if they have any hope of being elected. Something like a Sunday Law is to the Right of the Tea Party and would only appeal to the Religious Right, which moderate Republicans like Romney and Huntsman understand has more downside than up. I am more familiar with Huntsman than Romney, but one would think if Huntsman had extremist religious tendencies he would have displayed them as Utah governor. Utah is a rabid right-wing state which, if the idea of Sunday Laws had state-level potential, Utah would likely be the first (only?) place where implementation might seem remotely plausible. But Huntsman was a moderate, far to the left of his ridiculously right-wing, Republican-dominated legislature. Had he wanted to implement some extreme religious law, he sure had the best legislature in the country to support him. But he consistently pushed back against any such extreme tendencies. He is a moderate. Yet "TruthWave" uses the phrase "no doubt" concerning whether these guys would promote Sunday Laws. I call such an unwarranted phrase doubly ludicrous.
Now, concerning the presumed link between Brigham Young's ostensible support of deadly force - and what? - "TruthWave" is vague, perhaps it's Sunday Law enforcement? The inference is that this incident, cited from the mid/late nineteenth century, somehow extrapolates intact to modern church policy. This is also ludicrous, and counter-factual. Mormonism is very PR conscious - hence the lavish funding of the Tabernacle Choir and the public-facing emphasis on family. It's fairly accurate in general that many LDS like their guns, but the institutional church would not IMO be supportive of force in backing up some religious concept. That would never play in Peoria (although it might in Manti or Blanding). But again "TruthWave"'s inference is, at minimum, counter-intuitive, in today's American culture, for the LDS Church to have such intentions. So where's some hard evidence to back such an extreme view?
Wild assertions without serious backup = zero credibility. I see no Wave of Truth here.
Yes Aage, your point about Jews (while unconnected to Mormonism, of course) is really the most compelling - if one argues inductively. (the "meta" problem here is epistemological - do we argue from ostensibly empirical 'evidence' (inductive) or deductively from 'authority' - i.e. Ellen said it, I believe it and that settles it?).
Inductively considered, in today's cultural/political US climate, it seems politically suicidal to implement something that would affect Judaism so adversely. Of course, Sunday Law proponents aren't arguing inductively.
Then a secondary reason is that SDAs are minimally recognized by the average American. And if 'recognized' then SDAs are too often mistaken for LDS or Jehovah's Witnesses. Not exactly the picture of a despised group to be oppressed by a witch-hunting government. Sort of like if Joe McCarthy suspected Casper Milquetoast of being a Commie.
Rich
You are correct. In my story about the WWII Mormon was to depict a defensive behavior. Mormons as do Adventists believe that in a coming "Time of Trouble" they will be the targets and the victims.
If one reads the founding of Mormonism one will learn they pondered long on which day was "holy" they believed it was the Seventh-day. Never-the-less, they decided in favor of Sunday because they already had so many unusual fundamental beliefs to choose a Jewish Holy Day would make them even less able to evangelize.
I have observed and and been the target of some "well-meaning" aggressive, insidious, vindictive super Adventists--I wrote sometime ago about one experience. I'll not repeat it here.
I can not predict the future but fundamentalistic Adventists are as likely to be beast-like as any
religious zealot.
I will tell one story. Early on during John and Robert Brinsmeads first visit to Loma Linda, I had them in my home as dinner guests. I found them brash, self assured to the point of being cocky. I understood the thrust of their mission at that time. I was not particularly impressed.
Of course, the faculty knew my brother had been dismissed and so they were curious about my attitude and allegience. The inquiries were subtle. My response was Yes Bob and John were dinner guest in my home one evening. In fact during the past six years I have entertained unnumbered Seventh-day Adventists, a half dozen or so Mormons, several Roman Catholics, and I think possibly a couple of Christians. Tom Z
Ha! Elaine, I was once called "a Jesuit masquerading as a pastor's wife" by a well-known off-shoot author who sees Jesuits lurking behind every bush.
Whether or not it is politically correct, I think all religions try to put God into a little box of their own understanding, instead of realizing that God's thoughts and ways are not our thoughts and ways. Indeed, I believe that God is much larger than any religion.
Two comments if I may: Here in TN where the recent tornados ravaged the landscape, there has been swarming hordes of helpful Mormons. This in an area dominated by numerous SDA churches and an university. While without a doubt there has been an outflow of help from the SDA community, the LDS groups were larger and better organized and traveled quite a distance (at their own expense) to put it long hours of work in the oppressive heat. Doctrinal discussions aside, in a crisis situation, they seemed more "christian" than many of the (S)adventists in the area. As an aside there is still a group of LDS that keep the 7th day Sabbath. James Strang http://www.biblesabbath.org/tss/479/james.html was a close associate of Joeseph Smith. The "Strangites" keep Sabbath to this day
P.S. Here in TN everyone owns firearms not just the Mormons lol....SSS
@Aage: You are "nuts" if you haven't learned from history these two lessons:
1. History repeats itself 2. The masses will "get religion" when things get bad enough. Case in point: Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany gained power due the dire economic situation in Germany after WWI.
One addition note, not related to the history lesson above. I believe that Glenn Beck, a Mormon convert, has prepared the way for the first Mormon President in 2012. He has millions of zealous minions promoting his agenda.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Rich Hannon: Just wanted you to know that I have a big territory that I work in, and I have spent a lot of time over the last 7 years working in Southern Idaho and statewide in Utah, which as you know are most percentage wise Mormon regions in the USA.
What is "ludicrous" regarding your view is that it is based on things being like they are now, but if things continue to get worse and worse economically and natural disasters keep coming in rapid succession.
Those circumstances will bring on the demand for a National Sunday Law, and if we have a Mormon President, like Mitt or Jon, their theological underpinnings will justify making Sunday the "Sabbath" to enforce it as was in times past in the USA. Catholics and Evangelicals will not have a problem with this either, as for the Jews, the number of practicing Jews that keep the Sabbath in miniscule. And Jews would not protest Sunday keeping or be calling the Pope the Antichrist, but bona fide SDAs will be doing just that and will suffer persecution as result. History has proven over and over again that strange bedfellows end up working together in times of crisis. There would be perfect harmony between Roman Catholics, Mormons, and Evangelicals in calling for a Sunday Law to insure peace and prosperity in America, in fact can I hear Glenn Beck trumpeting it in a massive rally in Washington, on the TV, and on the radio, combined with the Tea Party Patriots.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Rich Hannon: The 12 disciples of Jesus were not well known either, but they came out of relative obscurity to turn the world upside down! History will repeat itself in this aspect again here in the USA., except that this time it will be remnant within the "Remnant Church" that will turn the earth upside down at the end of time!
Regrading the Jews: How is it that you cannot see that the Jews make up only about 2% of the US population, and on top of that Jews that keep the Sabbath religiously would be a much smaller percentage still. Additionally, Jews would have no problem with a Sunday Law, they would just go along with it, and go to the synagogue on the Sabbath or Friday night. The Jews will not be out going door-to-door, preaching in the streets, or speaking out via the mass media that Sunday is the Mark of the Beast!! They don't believe in the end time scenario of the SDA church, in fact they seem to have very little if any prophetic insight into the future regarding the Antichrist. That is the difference between SDAs and the Jews.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
TruthWave
Has it occurred to you that NOBODY outside looney bins see forced worship on Sunday as the answer to this country's moral or political problems? Neither Catholics, Baptists or Mormons--or anybody else, for that matter--desire such a law. The very idea is slanderous and is conjureded out of thin air. Rich is right that this preposterous idea is based on EGW and that it does not overlap with anything in the real world. The US is a multicultural society. The US Congress is not going to deprive Muslims and Jews and Buddhists and atheists of their religious freedom and force them to worship on Sunday, or risk execution. These things only happen in apocalyptic literature, not in the real world. And, by the way, the Nazis were anti-religious. There was no religious revival in Germany after Hitler's ascent to power. Hitler despised religion.
I understand that in your mind these things must happen because your holy scriptures (EGW) say so. That's a matter of faith and I grant you the right to believe it. All I'm saying is that it's pure lunacy to suggest that anything in our contemporary world points in that direction.
Aage
Aage
Adventists have read Rev. 14 entirely wrong. The mark of the Beast is to behave as God via Nero.
That could be even a General Conference President. Tom Z.
Truthwave has it all worked out: folks, just watch all this happen just as has been outlined. Another prophet for today! The only difference between this an Camping's prediction is there is no exact time when all this will occur, but soon, very soon we will see the U.S. convincing all the various religions to enforce Sunday as a worship day. This, in spite of the decreasing population identifying themselves as religious. But, stranger things have happened when prophetic and pontificating prophets continue with the predictions that began the SDA church. There is no end of "Chicken Littles" who are certain of the future and gullible believers. Even a cursory knowledge of history will reveal that the past is littered with "false prophets" who predicted all sorts of things--that never occurred. The only prediction that is certain is that the sun will rise tomorrow and another day will begin.
Elaine
"Adventists have read Rev. 14 entirely wrong. The mark of the Beast is to behave as God via Nero."
That sounds more like Rev. 13. But you're right - Adventists have misread Rev. 14. Obsessed as they were with historicism (wich is a dangerous form of hermeneutical nombrilism), they assumed that the sequence of visions correlates with a sequence of events. In fact, the judgment spoken of by the first angel is exactly the judgment witnessed in the latter half of the chapter. The "pre-Advent" concept is creatio ex nihilo.
@Aage Rendalen:
You are obviously not a student of history. How can you ignore the record of history in that it over time as repeated itself over and over again over the span to time, from ancient times till now? The USA has Sunday Laws on the books of law in almost every state of the 50 states. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law Dire circumstances in nations gives traction to the enforcement of unjust laws to keep control of the masses. Adolph Hitler would not have been able to promote Nazi "religion" if the economy was booming in Germany at the time when Hitler rose to power. Another point to consider, Hitler found a "scape goat" to blame Sabbath keeping Jews as their problem in Germany, and if they could be done away with Germany could return to its form days of pride and prosperity. The same argument will be used again in the near future, except this time it will be used against Sabbath keeping Christians (SDAs)! Just at a time when our US Empire is in decline, and the Papacy is rising in power (#5 on the Forbes most powerful people list) http://www.forbes.com/wealth/powerful-people/list so will the US follow in historical footsteps of Pagan Rome as it morphed into Papal Rome.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Bogdan Gheorghita: Are you proposing Futurism and or Preterism as having a more sound basis of historical evidence? Futurists are clueless when it comes to interpreting current events because they don't plan on being here, and Preterists are in an equally bad situation since they think all prophesy has already been fulfilled! The only interpretive model that basis its conclusions and predictions on the full body of historical evidence is the Historical method.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Elaine Nelson: How can you deny that the SDA prophetic scenario is being fulfilled before our very eyes?!! Look at the massive number of catastrophic natural disaster that have taken place all over planet earth in the space of just one year! Even people who are not Christians are wondering what is going on, on planet earth! The Papacy is rising in power, in spite of its global sex scandals, and Protestants are in bed with them as we speak. Every thing that EGW predicted in the Great Controversy is coming to pass! And yet, you propose that we drink the wine of Babylon!!
The truth and nothing but the truth.
Truthwave, as a Catholic I have suffered from attacks by evangelicals. Also Mormon missionaries target Catholics routinely. In fact many non-Mormons have reservations about Romney. Frankly I would have reservations about a SDA President. I would imagine he would institute Saturday laws and do everything in his power to put down us minions of the anti-Christ by any means necessary. If the Papacy was as powerful as you say then why isn't abortion illegal? Why are we attacked not just by bigots like yourself, but in the media. If us secret Jesuits were running the show do you think we would have picked B. Hussein Obama? EG Whites name adds up to 666. She is the Beast.
Because this year there have been more natural disasters, how can it be said to be SDA predictions? The Bible made them nearly 2,000 years ago. And the rapidity of information makes us aware of such events that in the past we had no knowledge. How long did it take the opposite side of the world to learn of the Lisbon Earthquake? Or the most disastrous earthquake in this world's history that occurred in China hundreds of years ago?
And to tie that in with the papacy rising in power has not substantiation. Actually, their so-called power is becoming impotent: how may Catholics complete ignore the papal pronouncements about birth control, condom use, and other "sins" under the Roman Catholic church? Because of their terrible history of priests molesting and abusing children for the past 100 years, there is great disrespect for the church and its leaders' overlooking these sins and refusing to notify authorities and hiding these sins within the church.
To believe they have great moral authority to be effective in making Sunday laws has no basis in facts as they stand. But that doesn't prevent Adventists from continuing to focus on the future edicts that the papacy may issue. If they issue edicts and no one listens, how ineffective will that be? Sorry, such scare-mongering is unattractive for any religion that pushes such tactics of another Christian religion. Remember: were it not for the catholic church there would be no bibles as we have them today, and that all Christians today have accepted the major doctrines decided upon by the one church that was THE Christian church for nearly 1500 years. Adventists are only a very young "Jonny-come-Lately to Protestant religion.
Elaine
TruthWave - Sun, 06/05/2011 - 06:53
"@Rich Hannon: The 12 disciples of Jesus were not well known either, but they came out of relative obscurity to turn the world upside down! History will repeat itself in this aspect again here in the USA., except that this time it will be remnant within the "Remnant Church" that will turn the earth upside down at the end of time!
Regrading the Jews: How is it that you cannot see that the Jews make up only about 2% of the US population, and on top of that Jews that keep the Sabbath religiously would be a much smaller percentage still. Additionally, Jews would have no problem with a Sunday Law, they would just go along with it, and go to the synagogue on the Sabbath or Friday night. The Jews will not be out going door-to-door, preaching in the streets, or speaking out via the mass media that Sunday is the Mark of the Beast!! They don't believe in the end time scenario of the SDA church, in fact they seem to have very little if any prophetic insight into the future regarding the Antichrist. That is the difference between SDAs and the Jews.
The number of Jews Is too small to play a part, but conversely it's the "remnant within the "Remnant Church" that will turn the earth upside down at the end of time!" You're contradicting yourself within one comment. Btw, the Nazis did not, repeat, did not, scapegoat the Jews due to their Sabbath-keeping. So the problem w/ your *motto*--"The truth and nothing but the truth"--is that you're missing the truth. And that, is "the whole truth."
The Sunday Law paradigm has absolutely no Scriptural Basis.
The references in Rev. 13 are to Nero (Got it right this time Aage). The projection is that other Nero like rulers that demand worship will appear up until the Endtime. Those that support such a ruler either by financial support (hand) or intellectual agreement (forehead) will suffer the same ultimate fate.
The mind set of Adventism is as prone to such blanishments as any other religious body or confederancy.
The Sabbath fixation is as baseless and the Investigative Judgment.
Unfortunately for the Republicans, no candidate or potential candidate has the resume to challenge Mitt. Anyone with the competence for the office is too smart to run for it. Tom Z
TruthWave
There is no sense in even addressing your screed. You're peddling a fever vision that has nothing to do with the real world and even Adventists have a hard time dealing with it nowadays. You would not get any mainstream SDA publication to publish such bigoted froth.
Aage
"Further, if the Mormon’s god is one who has placed a perpetual curse on Native Americans and Blacks, he/she/it is not the God of the Bible."
The God of the Bible placed a curse on women for all time, and a curse on Ham and his descendants. Placed curses on all manner of non-Jewish people as well. He is the God of the bible and I choose not to believe in that God.
How much do the Jesuits pay you Elaine?
They pay me well to stir great controversy as well. Ideology doesn't count - it's the conflict created that counts the most.
I find it rather illlogical how many attackers of any denomination or religion (people of particular faiths or of none do it) seek to find something in the past, sometimes hundreds of years ago, that they disagree with, or that was unjust, or is ridiculous or immoral, and then say that this proves they are wrong. In that case every religion and demonination fails the test and is not worthy of having anything to offer our current times. The another illogical assumption that predominates is to look at something official and claim that is what the religion is all about. That is simply a statement or act of official people. Every religion is incredibly varied and not all hold to everything.
These blogs are being overtaken by Jesuits!
Elaine
I'm a closet Hindu, but no one would care about that. Those Jesuits are the real threat, we all know. But why isn't someone bringing up the Illuminati? They are behind everything, so hidden no one knows.
Historicism is an illusion. There is no intimation whatsoever in the NT that Christians where looking forward to millennia of history before Jesus' reappearance. Apocalyptic was always about the here and now - the author's "here and now". Historicism was a gradual development that allowed much later Christians to situate themselves within the apocalyptic discourse. That's why I call it "hermeneutical nombrilism / selfishness". You read the Bible as if it had been written for and ABOUT you. It wasn't. Btw, I have always thought the Adventist pretension to find itself in Revelation 10 or 14 as ludicrous. It is both exegetical phantasy and repugnant megalomania.
Would you please have a look at this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_empires
Daniel is clearly a very provincial prophecy, actually concerned exclusively with empires that affected Palestine in the latter half of the first millennium BC. The Roman Empire (not really spoken of in Daniel), the Persian Empire and the Macedonian Empire don't even make it to the top 10 list. Focusing on Europe as the latest stage of the Daniel 2 vision is just plain anachronistic and wrong (the Reformers were hermeneutically selfish too). And the world has seen Its greatest empires only recently (the top 10 empires have appeared centuries after the collapse of the Roman Empire). How screwed up does your hermeneutics have to be to speak of any truthfulness in the historicist reading of Biblical apocalyptic?
And yes, Revelation is only a reworking of older (including Danielic) material that deals with the Roman Empire. Don't forget that in the Old Testament religion was never separate from national identity - the victory of Yahweh was also the victory of the Davidic king (the Jewish state). That the Roman emperor was also pontifex maximus. And that the Christain eschatological victory is the same as the inauguration of God's kingdom / state / empire.
America in prophecy? It always cracks me up :)
Brilliant way of expressing your insights!
@Truth Wave
There would be perfect harmony between Roman Catholics, Mormons, and Evangelicals in calling for a Sunday Law to insure peace and prosperity in America, in fact can I hear Glenn Beck trumpeting it in a massive rally in Washington, on the TV, and on the radio, combined with the Tea Party Patriots.
The Catholic Church is currently one of the strongest advocates for religious freedom of any religious institution. They are fighting for the basic human right to be able to choose ones own religion, because it is only when we have a free choice, that we can truly come to the truth. The truth has nothing to fear.
The Vatican, far from being in perfect harmony with any proposal of Sunday Law, would be staunchly opposed to any such move.
You can read about the Catholic teaching on religious freedom here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dignitatis_Humanae
In short, and I quote (from wiki - oh dear):
Man’s response to God in faith must be free – no person is to be forced to embrace Christianity. This is a major tenet of the Catholic faith, contained in Scripture and proclaimed by the Fathers. Religious freedom contributes to the environment where such free response is possible God’s own call to serve him binds persons in conscience but is not compulsion. God has regard for the dignity of all human beings as shown in the actions of Christ himself. Jesus did acknowledge the legitimacy of governments, but refused to impose his teachings by force. The Apostles followed His word and example. The Church is therefore following Christ and the Apostles when she recognized the principle of religious freedom, based both on the dignity of human persons and divine revelation. The Church herself does require a full measure of freedom, a sacred freedom, to carry out her mission.
I would thoroughly recommend reading the full document from Vatican II - here:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents...
Any notion that the Catholic church would propose, or even support a Sunday Law, is totally against the teaching of the church.
Tim
Tim - Clement
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Tim
You're of course right, but that makes no difference to those whose faith requires them to believe the opposite. To a hard-core SDA nothing put forth by your church is taken at face value because the Catholic church is believed to be a demonic organization, a front organization for the father of all lies. No reality check can break through such sanctified bigotry.
Aage
"TruthWave" many believe that natural disasters are increasing and the planet is in trouble. This is not specific to only Adventism.
- Ellen White did NOTHING to fight for civil liberties of blacks
- Ellen White said NOTHING about the role of ISLAM in last day events
- Now we see more false prophets saying they know the day and hour…oh wait Harold Camping says the date was correct, it was the event they had wrong - it was an "invisible judgement day"….hmmmmm have I heard this before - does it sound like another story from about 167 years ago? History repeats.
http://weirdnews.aol.com/2011/05/23/harold-camping-says-october-21-real-...
Hi Aage,
I understand the situation - and to be fair, the actions of various Catholic's in history does not help our case in these matters! The church has however publicly apologized for these actions on behalf of its previous members.
But it is very difficult to put these ideas across to an audience who will not accept the words or even the actions of the Church, because it is by definition "Babylon".
I see my role here to point out flagrant misrepresentations of official catholic teaching (as I understand it), so at least it is "on record". Sadly, as Bishop Fulton Sheen famously said:
"There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be."
My hope is to gently and lovingly correct some of these misperceptions. As we heard in mass last Sunday, from 1 Peter 3:
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect....
I know I find the fist part - giving an answer, easier than the second and more important part - doing this with gentleness and respect.
My prayer is that we may all grow in love and respect for each other, and find ways in which we may dialogue which uphold these essential values of our faith.
Tim
Tim - Clement
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Tim
Keep it up. TruthWave is not alone but the fact that he dares not disclose his name shows that his views are no longer kosher within large swaths of Adventism. (Mind you, I haven't been part of Adventism for the last 30 years, so I might be wrong.)
Aage
I agree with Elaine about the need to tolerate other faiths. In this respect SDAs and all Christians have a lot to learn from Hindus, just as there are things Hindus have a lot to learn from Christians. A Hindu saint said that just as all rivers lead to the same ocean, all religions lead to the same God. In fact, Hinduism is not a monolithic religion: it accommodates a spectrum of beliefs from polytheism with idol worship and rituals by priests ( which constitutes mainstream Hinduism, since it is appealing to most people) to the idea that "God" is not a personal being, to everything else in between! Hinduism accommodates even atheism: the largest number of atheistic texts in the world are in Sanskrit, the sacred language of the Hindus!
It is because Hinduism has no creed, no single pontiff , and no organised structure from which one can be excommunicated, that Hindus are largely a tolerant lot and that is why India, a Hindu majority nation, is by law a secular country . Of course there are Hindu fanatics who want to impose their version of Hinduism on everyone but they are not the majority, yet. They will be if Christian missionaries go around running down Hindu beliefs and present Jesus alone as the only way to salvation like they do.
Gopal
Spot on comment. Old uncle George can be blamed for a host of things while we carry on as if he did not exist.
@hopeful 2011:
Yes, the remnant will be a small percentage of the total population, but the BIG difference between them and that they will keep the Sabbath and have the faith of Jesus! Additionally, SDA sabbath keepers will be preaching to the masses a very un-politically correct message regarding the ID of the Antichrist, that will bring on the persecution and eventually the death decree to silence their voices of rebuke. The fact of the matter is that most Jews are Jews in ethnic origin and don't even practice their faith, most are secular and don't even read the Bible. Regarding the Nazi's: The fact remains that the Jews were scapegoated in Germany about 200,000 Jews were killed by the Nazis. History will repeat itself again in the near future, except this time it will be SDAs who will be the scapegoat.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Aage Rendalen :
I don't disclose my name, because of the hateful things that worldly liberal SDAs can do behind the scenes to ruin the life of those who stand for truth. The fact of the matter is that you preach a message that is NOT in line with our Historicist view of Bible prophecy.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Theist: The difference is that we have inspired insight into what this a sign of. The key word is convergence. All signs are now pointing to the second coming of Jesus. That is why the Sunday Law will be forth coming soon, to a neighborhood near you! You forget that now the Papacy is rated by Forbes magazine as the 5th most powerful person in the world in 2011, that was not the case 150 years ago! And on top of that, Protestants 150 years ago viewed the Papacy with contempt, but not now!
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Tim - Clement: What have you been smoking lately?
Note, the Associated Press news article below:
ZAGREB, Croatia (AP) _ "The Croatian parliament has passed a law forcing shops to close on Sundays in a concession to the Roman Catholic church. The church has campaigned for years for Sundays to be devoted to family or Mass in Croatia, which is almost 90 percent Roman Catholic. But Croatians have begun spending weekends in shopping malls that have flourished across the country in the past few years and remain open seven days a week.
The law adopted Tuesday and goes into effect Jan. 1. It allows Sunday shopping over the summer and Christmas holidays.
The law also allows stores in gas, bus and train stations to open on Sundays year-round, along with those in hospitals. Bakeries, newsstands and flower shops are also exempt from the ban."
Also this article; http://www.thetrumpet.com/?q=5676.4031.0.0 profiles the push for a Sunday Law in the EU, with Rome using its European Catholic Bishops to lobby for it, along with the Labor Unions.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Tom Zwemer: You have obviously embraced Preterism which looks at Prophecy being all fulfilled in the past, namely, the first century, therefore you are left clueless as to what's coming in the near future, what a deception!! How could anyone not see that major signs are transpiring before our very eyes that all validate our historic SDA positions now more than ever before!
The truth and nothing but the truth.
I am surprised that nobody mentioned the primary reason that there is unlikely to be a national Sunday law in this country (unless I missed the mention, could be, it's late).
Politics in this country is largely run for and by corporations. Do anyone believe that Walmart and Best Buy and Target and the auto dealerships and so on would sit idly by and let themselves be closed down on one of their most busy days?
Truth Wave:
T. W .
Ted Wilson?
Truly Warped?
Towards Waco
Twisted Weirdness?
Whatever your name, your paranoia about liberal adventists is misplaced. Beware of the venom of a self-righteous conservative adventist and you'll know the relentless wrath and vindictive pursuit of evil masquerading as holiness.
@TW
I hope you're trying to suggest that 200,000 Jews were killed only in (or from) Germany. Btw, where in prophecy was such a momentous event predicted? You see, historicism can make prophecy "mean" anything. And it is based among other things on historical ignorance.
Nona
I don't have any issues with your comment, but you being anonymous calling out TruthWave for being anonymous is somewhat ironic, don't you think?
TruthWave
You're not exactly 'a profile in courage', if I may say so, and a bit deluded if you think Alexander Carpenter is going to show up on your doorstep with a baseball bat. But you're very perceptive when you note that "[I] preach a message that is NOT in line with our Historicist view of Bible prophecy." I'm sure few people here had suspected that.
Aage
Intentionally ironic!
@LSU Alumnus: Like I've said before, when things get bad enough, the masses will "get religion" and rally around the false religious leaders who offer them "hope" in a time of turmoil, in the form of a Sunday law to make God happy and bring back prosperity to our nation. Ancient Rome had Sunday laws, and the United States has had Sunday closure laws in its history as well.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Nona: In the North American division, the worldly liberals now dominate most churches. As a whole they posses the veneer of Christianity, but their lifestyle is more representative of the average secular professional. This mindset and attitude permeates this forum in a large degree as well. I persecute liberals, but when I share the truth with them in Sabbath School Classes and on online that is when their true colors are exposed. Case in point your comments. It truth that they hate, not me!
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Aage Rendalen: I don't think Alexander Carpenter is going to show up with a baseball bat either. He doesn't have the authority of a Conference President or a Pastor to influence committees. Pastors, local church boards, Conference Presidents and their Executive Committees are so often dominated by multi-generational SDAs that can do you harm, if you preach the truth these days. They have ways of trying to silence you. Albeit not all Conferences are controlled by liberals, thank God for that, or we would be done for as a movement of God.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Bogdan Gheorghita: The total number of Jews killed in the European Holocaust was approximately, 6,000,000 Jews. The figure of 200,000 Jews killed in Germany/Austria was based on this chart:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/killedtable.html
The prophecy that was fulfilled this text: Matt: 27:25 "And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children."
And in these texts as well:
Matthew 23:29-36;
"29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous,
30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."
The truth and nothing but the truth.
TruthWave - Michigan conference needs you. There is a space where Samuel once sat in judgment. Go apply! Then you will have nothing to fear but the devil and his seductresses while you are on the road.
TruthWave
I think it might come as somewhat of a surprise to most progressive Adventists that most of NAD is dominated by coffee-drinking liberals, but such a point of view, I suppose, is par for the conservative course. Take political conservatives: anything left of Fox News to them is secular humanism and socialism. The fundamentalist world is binary, us vs them, Satan vs God, coffee vs postum. And yes, Samira has a point: go east young man. Michigan seems to be a good place to fight back for 19th century truth.
Aage
@TW
Oh, the effulgence of thine smarting smarts! You do realize that not all Jews were Pharisees or scribes, don't you? Pogroms and ghettos have been with us at least since 38 AD (Alexandria). It looks like this prophecy has been fulfilling for some two thousand years now. Some prophetic precision! Some apotelesmatic persistency! Some glorious moment for historicism!
As I sat in the academy cafeteria with several of my colleagues, all of us SDA teachers, the funeral service for the space shuttle astronauts was being broadcast. At one point, the minister tried to comfort the families by assuring them that their fallen loved ones were in heaven now looking down on us in peace. The conversation at our table immediately turned to the state of the dead, and within a few minutes, the consensus was two-fold in nature. Not only was the minister biblically incorrect, but the entire sermon was a lie carefully concocted by Satan himself to ensnare the grieving audience in their benumbed and bereaved state. Eventually this mistaken view of the state of the dead was compared to the Mormon angel Moroni and the gullibility of all nonbelievers. I shook my head and excused myself from the table. Our principal visited my classroom later that afternoon to make sure I wasn’t depressed or angry and reminded me that one of the hardest aspects of our faith was forgiving our own members when they misbehaved. He referred to it as “Adventist elitism.”
When any organized religion, ours included, lays claim to “the truth”, faith becomes a zero sum game. I can’t be correct unless you are incorrect. While always unattractive, this attitude has often become dangerous, which is the main point of Christopher Hitchens’ book God Is Not Great. I watched the debate between Hitchens and Reverend Al and remember thinking that the Reverend did pretty well for himself overall. Sharpton acknowledged each atrocity Hitchens offered up by saying that it was man, in his selfish state, who was responsible, not God. On the question of who is the “bigot” in the Sharpton-Hitchens-Romney saga, I believe the answer is (D) All of us.
The truth and nothing but the truth. - according to ME, yes ME, the wonderful ME! ME! ME!
There, fixed that for you.
@Samira: Would to God all of our SDA Conferences in the NAD were like Michigan and Central California Conference, that would create a firestorm of evangelism!
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Aage Rendalen: From the Baby Boomers to the Generation X and Y worldliness, liberalism and comprise are key identifying characteristics. These negative traits have hindered the progress of the Gospel. There is no Christian evangelism movement that changed the world for the Gospel that was lead by worldly liberal professed Christians. Case in point, the massive bloodletting that mainline Protestant churches have experienced over the last 30 years.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@rcs: What is the alternative to preach and teach the lies of the Devil? Enough already! Our psuedo Pagan/Christian culture needs pointed preaching these days, not warm and fuzzy sermons that tickle the ears of the Congregants.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
TruthWave--rather tsunami----You gush, spue, spit, with overwhelming nonsense. Your immediate classification of everyone else certainly beclouds your rational faculties. Out of the 28 fundamental beliefs there are about 20 that are congruent with orthodox Christianity the rest are ego centric pietistic self centered isolationism.
Christ is the Alpha and Omega--my faith begins and ends in His wisdom, judgment, rescue, and love.
I have no time table but His. I wish to wade across Jordan with the same faith and courage that I waded ashore on three hostile beaches. This last crossing is a welcome home for sure.
I want no labels except Christin, Husband, Father, oh well story teller! It is not that Adventism is so right or so wrong but so self assurred and so judgmental that is the turn-off.
I told the story before but Aage brought it to mind again. Dad was traveling pullman from Ohio to Mass.
with the President of the Atlantic Union Conffere, the Treasurer, and one other Union official. They joined in the dining car for breafast. Of course, the group deferred to the President. He order, Orange Juice, Postum, a Kellogg cereal, each followed in step until, dad. He order, two eggs over easy, wheat toast, hash browns, and coffee with cream. The President said, just a minute, I would like to change my order please: to two eggs over easy, wheat toast, hash brown, and coffee with cream.--he was joined by the remaining two with the same. Th Union Conference President offered Grace.
I haven't slightest idea what the Union Conference President's views on Revelation were but is was of might little stature as a man. I bet the guardian angels and the chef and waiters all had a good laugh.
Tom Z.
@Tom Z: Nice story. However, did Daniel comprise his dietary principles to win converts and impress his peers? No, he did not. We can stand on our principles without offending those around us. Once we start down the slippery slope of compromise there is no end in sight except oblivion. We need to be Christian men of steel and velvet.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@TruthWave-Don't let the scriptures get in the way of the majority of posters here. Trying to quote scripture to those who strongly disregard the applications of scripture and degrade its authority in their daily lives and furthermore delegate it as allegory is pointless.
I'll call your five proof texts and raise you five more SOP quotes; let's see who can win this poker game:
"poke 'em in the ribs until they finally fold?"
Elaine
Truewave: I was writing about reality. The story of Daniel is great stuff for little Jewish boys in a great big pagan worlds. I tried to pattern my army life after Daniel. I don't know if they had Coffee in Babylon
I am such they had eggs---potatoes were a New World Item. I don't think the bagel had been invented as yet or toast for that matter.
There are shelves of Ellen White books and there are dozens of Union Conference Presidents.
Seldom have the two ever met in ernest. To night I plan to have oat meal with half and half and raw sugar and some 12 grain toast with real butter. If it is a sin, it will be the smallest sin of the day, I am sure. trying to talk sense to you is probably the biggest vanity. Certainly your beliefs are your own business. Certainly your effort to convert others is admirable. To damn them for not being convinced is not in your court. Tom Z.
truthwave, In Israel the sabbath is protected by law. Their laws are stricter then any in Croatia. I guess I need to worry about National Saturday Law. It's all an SDA plot.
Actually the Catholic Church has been seriously persecuted in the USA by Protestants such as yourself. Our churches were burned and members murdered by people who think as you do. We have much more to fear from you then vis versa. That is the truth.
Why is this Shaptongue-Romney issues worthy of commentary now? This happened years ago.
To paraphrase Robert Brinsmead:
I'd rather have pork in my stomach and love and forgiveness in my heart than to have vegeburgers in my stomach and criticism and judgment in my heart.
To Jack channeling Brinsmead,
Why don't you rather have veggieburgers in your gut and love and forgiveness in your heart than to have pork in your belly and criticism and judgment in your heart?
@TruthWave
@Tim - Clement: What have you been smoking lately?
I quite like the occasional cigar!
Can you tell me how allowing a day off a week on a communal day infringes religious liberty?
Surely as an Adventist you understand the need for at least one day of rest a week.
Can you provide a link to the full AP article?
Also can you define what you mean by "Sunday Law"?
Thanks,
Tim
Tim - Clement
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@Tim_Clement:
The AP is a non-profit new agency that works with scores of newspapers and Web news organizations, here is their modus operandi : "The Associated Press is entitled exclusively to use for re-publication of all news dispatches credited to it or not otherwise credited in this paper and all local news of spontaneous origin published herein." You have to pay to get their articles.
Regarding Sunday Laws, SDAs could tolerate Sunday Laws if all that they required is for stores to close, and all none emergency types of businesses. But, as SDAs we see a Sunday Laws in a prophetic light, in that it will lead to the exaltation of Rome and Apostate Protestantism. Plus, the real issue will be when we point out to the public that Sunday Laws are not based on the Bible and the creation of the Antichrist, who doesn't wan the Sabbath to be honored and kept, that is what will bring down the wrath upon God's true church. Freedom of religious protest will be taken away from SDAs by the powers that be. Its happened in the ancient times, and in the recent past in the USA, and it will happen again at the end of time.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Fr Jim: It is true, that Catholics have been persecuted by Protestants, but not by SDAs. I have not read any historical incidents of SDAs burning SDA churches or killing Catholics.
Regarding Israel and the Sabbath: Israel may laws protecting the Sabbath, how is it then that most don't really keep the Sabbath in Israel? Most Jews in Israel are not Sabbath keeping Jews, they are secular, and the same culture pervades Jews living in the USA. The only plot that is for real is the steady religio-political movement of the Catholic Church to exalt Sunday over Sabbath. Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict both are pushing for Sunday sacredness globally.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
@Tom Z: I don't "damn" anyone, God will do that in the day of judgment. All that we can do now is present the truth in the clearest way possible, in the hope that they will see the light before it is to late.
The truth and nothing but the truth.
My family is now enjoying all these blogs for worship in our home. Thanks so much for leading us through the kind and wonderful conversations that are brought to our family alter. It is all so stimulating to see how the Love of GOD flows from writer to writer and makes me proud to know that GOD is in all of you. Thanks again and can't wait to read more each morning, noon and night. It is my belief that without this kind of dialogue I wouldn't know the Lord of love like I do today. Happy Sabbath.
It is true that Adventists most likely haven't been part of major documented physical persecution of Catholics. But we sure know how to breed suspicion, ill-will and hatred towards them. Growing up in an Adventist community I experienced plenty of anti-Catholic sermons, classes in Bible at school and academy teaching us about the evils of Catholicism and their secretive designs against Adventists, required reading of Great Controversy as God's truth about history and the future, and the anti-Catholic rhetoric in the many evangelistic campaigns I attended as a child and youth. Then there were all the rumours and conspiracy theories that went around the Sabbath lunch gatherings, the school playground and the after church chats. I still hear many of those same anti-Catholic themes and rumours.
I remember when the pope was visiting USA many years ago and a group of Adventists put up anti-pope billboards around the place and distributed Great Controversy like the leaves of autumn. The PR department for the GC did massive media campaigns to say that the people involved were crackpots, had nothing to do with the church and that the church didn.t promote or believe such nonsense. That it was an anomaly of the past that Adventist had long shrugged off and disassociated itself from. Then in the Adventist Review there were articles saying that we believe all this stuff and go along with all of Great Controversy, but that we have to be careful how we present ourselves publicly so we don't alienate people. We have to win them over before revealing the Real Truth About the Catholic Church to them. Lying out of one side of their mouth to the public and the media, while bashing the people pushing the church line publicly, while bostering the nonsense to the church folk saying nothing has ever changed and we're as anti-Catholic as ever.
Doesn't hit the headlines as persecution of the Catholics, but the attitudes have poisoned many and continue to do so.
This is currently the situation with the G.C. president's plan to distribute 500,000 copies of the Great Controversy. This is to warn people about the dreaded Catholicism that is expected to be established soon. This is a great way to make friends and influence people?
Elaine
I've decided to associate with the Quakers and the Unitarian Universalists now. Make much more sense, use their brains, have a heart and are more attuned to the spirit of Jesus.
truthwave, I have personally seen Adventist bigotry. During World Youth Day Adventists slipped in and handed out vile literature that appeared to be Catholic but wasn't. When the Pope visited Washington DC Adventists were there in droves disrupting Mass, illegally invading Catholic churches to place literature, and shrieking hate over megaphones. Adventists were surely part of the anti-Catholic riots in New York, Boston, and elsewhere in the US in the 19th century. My arrival on this blog was due to an Adventist pastor who lied and deceived at one of your seminars.
Your comment on Israel shows your bias. You don't mind enforcing Sabbath rules on the rest of us, if you could get away with it. If the Catholic Church was as powerful as you say then why is there still abortion in the US? If we could end that by fiat we would. Your "logic" such as it is falls apart in the light of the real truth.
Fr. Jim
Your illustrations certainly demonstrate a lack of civility and basic Christian Grace in the behavior of Adventist youth et al toward Roman Catholics. The idea of a broadcast distribution of the Book Great Controvery is a stamp of institutional approval of such rude behavior. The only thing worse would be to distribute Steps to Christ which consists of a series of speed bumps to the invitation to :Come"
However, rather than citing the vindictive nature of Adventist behavior toward Roman Catholics, A stronger indictment would be to cite a few of the retaliatory actions of Adventist leadership against its own.
If one were to use the writings of Ellen Whte as an out-reach tool. The the books: Ministry of Healing and Education were be much more in tune with the human need of today.
Needless to say the present action plan of the SDA Church is a stampede to oblivion.
I know of no church founded in America that has even a whiff of orthodoxy to it. Yet each and everyone
declare an exclusive hold on the "Truth".
Of course, I also believe that the Roman Cahtolic Church missed a great opportunity in not following through with Vatican II. The same mind-set that plagues the SDA Church. Is operative in the
recent history of the Vatican. Tom Z.
Tom, I try to avoid commenting on solely internal issues in the Adventist church. I leave that to the members and focus only on the issues that pertain to Catholicism. The Catholic Church has followed through on Vatican II. If you read the documents you will find Pope Benedict understands them very well.
Thanks, Dr Burton, for another resonant article that has triggered another passionate discussion. I must say, the general observation that Christians ignore the existence of that whole genocidal paradigm in the OT is simply undeniable.
Get the book: http://www.holditpreacher.com
Royo
Is it really written?
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