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The Master’s Children
“If we truly want a less violent society, not hitting our children is a good place to start,” was Paul Holinger’s response to the editor of the New York Times following a recent article on the status of “paddling” in the nation’s school systems. Dr. Holinger went on to say, “I see the carnage of physical punishment every day in the office. Physical punishment is a major public health problem in this country.”
Elizabeth Gershoff, a researcher at the University of Michigan’s School of Social Work, also wrote in to say, “The more children are spanked, the more aggressive they are and the more likely they are to engage in delinquent or at-risk behaviors.” (1)
“Spanking” is a euphemism for “hitting.” (2) In the name of “discipline” children are daily spanked, slapped, hit, smacked and shaken, by adults – mainly by those whom they trust the most. And this humiliating treatment is both socially and legally accepted. One is not permitted to hit one’s spouse or a stranger as this action would be considered domestic violence and/or assault. However, one is permitted to hit a smaller and even more vulnerable person if one is a parent or caregiver.
The invention of concepts such as ‘reasonable chastisement’ and ‘lawful correction’ in the law arises from the perception that children are the property of their parents. Children are seen as only “half” persons with a limited number of rights. This is the modern equivalent of laws that were in force a century or two ago that allowed masters to beat their slaves or servants and husbands to ‘discipline’ their wives. (3)
The assumption is that parents have a right, even a duty, to hit children. Children, whose developmental state and small size are acknowledged to make them particularly vulnerable to physical and psychological injury, amazingly have less protection under law from deliberate assault than do adults.
Many will counter with the argument that there is a big difference between ‘necessary loving discipline’ and child abuse. Parents who cross the line need to be punished, but conscientious parents who spank their children are not in that category. Dr. Murray Straus, a sociologist, maintains that it should not be necessary to choose between corporal punishment done with love and abusive corporal punishment. There is an alternative, he says, just stop hitting children. (4)
Save our Children foundation, a worldwide organization that promotes child welfare has taken a strong stand against the use of corporal punishment. In addition to the physical and psychological damage to children, they see the social consequences as being equally damaging. “The strongest, usually unintended, message that corporal punishment sends to the mind of a child is that violence is acceptable behavior, that it is all right for a stronger person to use force to coerce a weaker one. This helps to perpetuate a cycle of violence in the family and in society.” (5)
Children raised on an ethic where the strong hurt the weak with impunity become adults who believe that hurt and pain are part and parcel of a love relationship. Studies show that children who are hit identify with the aggressor and are more likely to become hitters themselves, i.e., bullies and future abusers of their children and spouses.
In addition, the rational that “I must hurt you for your own good,” teaches the concept that right can only be maintained by the use of power and might, that right in and of itself is not a strong enough motivational factor for correct behavior.
It may come as a surprise to many but corporal punishment of children has been declared a human rights issue by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. In Europe, this convention has been ratified by all Members States of the Council of Europe and a majority of their member states have committed themselves to put an end to all corporal punishment of children. Full prohibition in law has been adopted by 18 member states and at least seven others have publicly pledged to do the same. (6 )
It is interesting to note that South Africa’s constitutional prohibition of corporal punishment in all schools was challenged in 2002 by a group of Christian schools who maintained that this law limited their parental and community rights to practice their religion. The law was upheld on the basis that schools function in the public domain to prepare learners for life in the broader society. As such, codes of discipline fall under the same norms as those of health and safety, fair labor practices, planning permissions and national examination standards. (7) I mention this case as an example because the resistance to laws restricting the use of corporal punishment are usually brought forward by religious groups and organizations.
While methods of raising children without the use of corporal punishment can be taught, it is really a way of life that is best learned by example. My own maternal grandmother used non violent methods and techniques that were observed by my mother and passed down generationally. My two beautiful grandsons, 17 and 22, have never experienced corporal punishment. Throughout their school career teachers have consistently reported that they are exceptionally respectful, cooperative, courteous and kind.
Non-violent child rearing methods work. And they work well. Nevertheless, I would never encourage parents to eliminate spanking unless they were willing and able to replace corporal punishment with better child disciplinary methods – just as I would not tell someone to quit eating meat if there were no nutritional alternatives available. However the persistence of Christian parents to hold on to the “spare the rod and spoil the child” philosophy and even promote spanking of children in light of the fact that there are much better and more effective ways to discipline children defies my imagination.
In my previous career in Corrections, I was friends with an officer in charge of training police dogs. He said it was very important never to use harsh methods or physical punishment on the dogs. Dogs who had experienced pain in their training phase would often freeze up in an actual emergency situation, fearing punishment if they acted outside of their training boundaries. Dogs who had never been physically punished would often come up with a creative solution in a new situation which saved the life of an officer.
Over a hundred years ago, animals were routinely trained by harsh, often painful methods. In light of the common practices of her day, Ellen White made this remark:
“The severe training of youth – without properly directing them to think and act for themselves as their own capacity and turn of mind will allow, that by this means they may have growth of thought, feelings of self-respect, and confidence in their own ability to perform – will ever produce a class who are weak in mental and moral power. And when they stand in the world to act for themselves, they will reveal that fact that they were trained, like the animals, and not educated.” (8)
While many may acknowledge that hurting children, like waging war, are not ideal behaviors for either home or country they nevertheless will justify these actions as “emergency measures” vital in the present age to deter worse behavior, expedient in this sinful economy to restrain evil. They will even suggest that God Himself has resorted to such methods to keep his children in check and use a literal reading of scriptures as their justification.
Long ago, in those early years of our own lives, before we had the ability to define our emotions or even words to describe how we felt, our perception of God was being formed. How we respond to God today was shaped in large part by our encounters with God’s surrogates during our formative years. As a society our acceptance of violent child disciplinary practices and behaviors has been inculcated into our corporate psyche. Sadly this acceptance is now reflected in our Christian teachings and doctrines.
Thus the suffering of the innocent becomes redemptive. Law and order are maintained by visions of hell fire. The door is opened to the belief that God himself is an Inflictor of pain and ultimately the Executioner of death. When we worship a God who not only sanctions but encourages the use such methods then, I believe, Satan succeeds in turning the truth about God into a lie.
I have a close friend whose parents were missionaries and he grew up in China. As both his mother and father traveled extensively during his early years, he was left to the care of devoted Chinese servants. Recently he had the opportunity to return to China and was curious to know about his childhood. He was able to locate and speak to a couple who had raised him. As they shared with him stories about his childhood, he asked, “Did I ever misbehave?” “At times,” they replied smiling. “What punishment did you use? Did you ever spank me? At this the couple seemed taken back and became very serious, “Oh no,” they said, “we would never hit the master’s child.”
© Donna J. Haerich
Endnotes:
1. New York Times article by Dan Frosch,” Schools Under Pressure to Spare the Rod Forever” 3/28/11
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/28/education/30paddle.htnl
2. The United Nations committee on the Rights of the Child defines corporal punishment in these words:
Corporal punishment is any punishment in which physical force is used and intended to cause some degree of pain or discomfort, however light. Most involves hitting (“smacking”, “slapping”, “spanking”) children, with the hand or with an implement – whip, stick, belt, shoe, wooden spoon, etc. But is can also involve, for example, kicking, shaking or throwing children, scratching, pinching, biting, pulling hair or boxing ear, forcing children to stay in uncomfortable positions, burning, scalding or forced ingestion (for example, washing children’s mouths out with soap or forcing them to swallow hot spices).
3. Susan H. Bitensky, Corporal Punishment of Children: A Human Rights Violation. Transnational Publishers, 2006
4. Murray A. Straus, Beating the Devil out of Them. Lexington Books, 1994
5. See web site: www.savethechildren.net
6. The Council of Europe, Commission on Human Rights’ web site lists the following European countries as having banned corporal punishment at a national level in legislation. Austria, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Latvia, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Spain, Sweden and Ukraine. The following countries have committed to banning it in the near future: Czech Republic, Estonia, Ireland, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Slovakia and Slovenia.
See web site: https://wcd.coe.int/wcd/ViewDoc.jsp?id=1237635&Site=CM
7. In the Constitutional Court of South Africa: Christian Education South Africa v Minister of Education, case CCT 4/00. Decided on 18 August 2002. Information taken from the position paper by the European Commission on Human Rights.
8. Ellen G. White, Child Guidance. Southern Publishing Association, Nashville, Tenn. 1954, page 227
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Thank you Donna, for this beautiful article! As a child who was beaten and received my last belting four months before I turned twenty, I have to say that I think spankings have done more to turn people off from God. While I forgive my parents who did as they were taught, I have to say I was afraid of God for years far into my adulthood because who is bigger and has more power than God? I also love your closing story --are not all children, "The Master's child?"
"Dr. Ralph Welsh who has given psychological examinations to over 2,000 delinquents, has developed what he calls. "The Belt Theory of Juvenile Delinquency." Dr. Welsh tells us:
"The recidivist male delinquent who has never been exposed to the belt, extension cord or fist at some time in his life is virtually non-existent. As the severity of corporal punishment in the delinquent's developmental history increases, so does the probability that he will engage in a violent act."
To think that this corporal punishment is most often found in Christian homes is a blot on Christianity.
While searching for the above quotation, there was a recent incident in S. Florida of a school principal who was indicted for beating his daughter with an electrical cord, leaving scars, and he adamantly maintained that it was the right punishment! Violence breeds violence. In searching the internet, the inmates at San Quentin reported that 100% had received "extreme" beatings before their incarceration.
Elaine
The realities of childhood development are not easily compartmentalized into "either/ or" decisions and the studies quoted have many variables that are not adequately accounted for. It is very difficult to do "retrospective" analysis and "isolate" a variable such as "spanking" and come up with very credible conclusions. Evaluating prisoners or delinquents as to whether their behaviour was brought about by "spankings" as opposed to cruelty or very harsh discipline or being in a situation such as rule by the "law of the jungle" ,psychiatric disorders, genetic predisposition , etc. is very difficult to "sort out". Each child is different and not "one method" works effectively in all children. I personally was rarely spanked when I was growing up. Of our 3 children one was never spanked, one was spanked occasionally, one was spanked rarely. All 3 turned out to be well adjusted adults, well educated, high achievers academically and very loving individuals.
While I agree that corporal punishment should definitely not be used in the school setting by teachers etc. I am less inclined to "legally ban" this practice and have the government "enforce" their method of discipline in the home setting.
Unfortunately child rearing is not a "cookbook" endeavour where you utilize the same formula and get the same results each time!!
Just as the practice of medicine is an "art", the practice of child rearing is also an "art"!!
A healthy dose of "love" no matter what form of discipline is chosen, seems to be a "key ingredient" for successful outcomes and the lack thereof usually is disasterous!!!
All the best
Fred
Child abuse is wrong under all circumstances, including the abuse of overbearing discipline, or neglect and insufficient discipline.
Spanking in anger or frustration is never good or productive.
But spare the rod, and spoil the child.
But corporeal discipline should really end around 6 or 7,
after this, other methods seem to work more effectively.
Hey Nick - hit em til they're 6 or 7 - before they are big enough to retaliate. Use violence while they are the smallest and most vulnerable. Not sure I get it. Give some reasoning - other than using a single proof text to justify violent behaviour.
Please apply all of your SUPER hermeneutics to the following:
Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Ps 89:32
In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.
Prov 10:13
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Prov 13:24
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Prov 22:15
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Prov 23:13,14
A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.
Prov 26:3
The rod AND reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
Prov 29:15
Elisha who gained a double portion of spirit should have been arrested by CPS for calling out the she-bears.
I challenge all of the so-called enlightened "time-out" advocates to volunteer for recess/yard duty at their local public elementary school. 2 days ought to do it.
The church is inceasingly being populated by truth trashing, fanatic, insubordiante, gainsayers.
To Jim Roberts:
I read a book about shepherds and it said the rod is not used so much for beating as it is a guiding factor like when the lamb falls over a cliff the rod allows the shepherd to reach the lamb and pull him back up the hill. If the rod is for correction, then what happened with the bears was not a punishment, but actually an annihilation. There must be more to that story than meets the eye.
If Jesus is the exact expression of the Father, then God must be nicer than the OT reports Him. And even if God swings a belts at His children, it must not be too violent becuse the closest example we find in Jesus' life is the cleansing of the temple and one gospel decribes children coming to see Jesus afterward. If Jesus was scary and violent, I think they would have run away.
We know God is love and disciplines His children in love but with no venting of His own anger in a selfish manner, but humans are not God and are not unbiased and unselfish. For every truly loving parent there are parents who force their will on a child--denying them their God given rights.
I don't support spoiling a child, I simply believe that there are many other ways to discipline a child than to use power over them. Dr. Phil has many great ideas on punishing without violence. Violence breeds more violence. Ellen White described how a child's will was to be bent, not broken and yet how many have had their wills broken from angry and improper discipline?
"spare the rod, and spoil the child."
As Cherilyn has written, I have also heard this interpretation. When was the shepherd's rod ever used to beat sheep?
Regardless: the Bible can be used to justify all sorts of horrible behavior: for a rebellious son, he should be stoned. Anybody want to use this method? If the texts Jim proposed would be used today, many would find themselves indicted for cruelty to children and domestic violence. Using corporal punishment for every childhood infraction would instill hatred in any child. Most of these situations were in very tightly controlled Bible-run homes who believed in using the rod. These people are not fit to be parents. There are many ways to train a child but physical spankings should never be used. Depriving them of some future event; making them do extra chores, but most of all, create in them from the earliest the desire to please their parents and parents should constantly say "thank you," "I love and appreciate you," and let them know how their successes are what brings you joy. Spanking indicates a lack of alternatives.
While many successful adults were spanked as a child, is there any proof that it contributed to their success? Aren't there successful people who were never spanked?
Elaine
What about the "child in the womb", dose it have rights, is it innocent to suffer a cruel dead in the hands of legalize abortion? Are we going to delegate our God given responsibility to the state to parent and correct our children like we have done with educating, feeding and indoctrinating them?
@Donna- "As a society our acceptance of violent child disciplinary practices and behaviors has been inculcated into our corporate psyche. Sadly this acceptance is now reflected in our Christian teachings and doctrines."
Really? Where is this reflected? Any evidence to back up this silly statement?
"Long ago, in those early years of our own lives, before we had the ability to define our emotions or even words to describe how we felt, our perception of God was being formed. How we respond to God today was shaped in large part by our encounters with God’s surrogates during our formative years."
Because I was spanked as a child and the specific way in which my parents raised me(heaven forbid my parents actually discpilined me for misbehaving) has formed and shaped my perception of God based off of that particular time period in my life? Sure, and pigs can fly!
Loving home?
Christian home?
http://youtu.be/cdHb6I0kSiM
Kenneth James
That was Solomon in the Youtube video.
Did you see his blue jeans and black sweater?
He must have learned all of that parenting from King David.
Jim, you insinuated that these references are for children. Children weren't mentioned in many of those texts. For someone who gets so upset and angry about poor use of the scriptures you should be appalled at your lack of intelligent analysis of these texts.
I think that according to these we need to take you out and give you a good whacking for your foolishness. I think we need to have someone with a rod to give out some good beatings to anyone, not just kids, that exhibit foolishness. Every workplace needs to have someone ready with the rod. Every courtroom too, and maybe a few on the street corner. Perhaps children should be hitting their parents when they exhibit foolishness and poor behaviour, attitudes and thinking. Perhaps every campmeeting and GC session could have a beating place too.
Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Ps 89:32
- this says nothing about hitting kids or any human hitting another. I'm waiting to see God hit someone with a rod or someone who has the visible stripes from a whipping by God. Do you understand metaphor and poetry, Jim?
In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.
Prov 10:13
- Stop using words to tell off people who don't exhibit correct understanding in church and sermons, Jim. Stand at the door at church and beat them as they leave. That would be more in line with the biblical literalist approach you advocate. Where does this specifically relate to punishing children? I see no evidence of this being applied throughout Scripture.
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Prov 13:24
- hmmm... everyone who doesn't hit his son hates him? Biblical literalism fails again! Learn to understand the play of words, Jim. And this says nothing about hitting girls. Sons can be of all ages too. When did your dad stop hitting you?
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Prov 22:15
- if it's good enough to beat it out of a child, beat it out of an adult too.
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Prov 23:13,14
- this isn't talking about a gentle tap - this is talking about a beating. Let's save all our children from "hell" or from being lost. No need to preach grace or anything else. Just beat the living daylights out of them. Just stop short of beating them to death.
A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.
Prov 26:3
- nothing is said about a child here. Beat every fool on the back. we all come across plenty of fools. Let's start whacking them as much as we can. A great way to win friends and influence people. I want to be part of a church that is know for the way it beats children to save their souls, that whacks every person when they do or say something foolish.... Jim, I love the behaviour you promote in the name of God. I want to take up your spirituality and spiritual practices like beating every kid and fool. The world will be such a happier, friendlier and peaceful place. Let's start to do it in the home and church first and model it. Soon the whole world will want to join!
The rod AND reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
Prov 29:15
- we don't need lessons any more to give wisdom. Let's do it the easy way. Beat kids and tell them off and they will become wise! They'll be eternally grateful to us for treating them so wonderfully and wisely. Fool! Where's the whip?!
Jim, sorry - you've shown your true psychological and exegetical colours. Not buying today, or tomorrow, or ever....
As I recall Singapore still uses "bamboo caning" for punishment for folks of all ages who break the law. They have a very low crime rate!! Maybe the "cliche" of "walk softly but carry a BIG stick" might have application here?!?
God's ideal discipline to "do right because it is right" doesn't seem to be working for very many in today's society unfortunately!!
Happy Memorial Day and Happy Sabbath to each one!!
Fred
In China, most of us would be imprisoned for daring to speak out. That definitely curtails "crimes."
But---if deterrence is the method used to prevent crimes, the increasing population of U.S. prisons is sadly, not working. California will release more prisoners monthly--so they can house more dangerous ones. How's that "big stick" working?
Elaine
The Bible texts quoted by Jim weren't for crimes, but for being foolish and lacking understanding at the very least. Crimes would call for much more with the mentality shown. I'm sure Jim would be in favour of killing people for picking up sticks on Sabbath or being disrespectful to parents, to mention 2 OT instances. Not exactly crimes either in today's understanding.
Prisons in Calif. vs. prisons overseas are very difficult to compare.
True example
Calif.- 3 square meals a day, free TV, free gym privileges, ready access to drugs, gangs, no work gangs (cruel and unusual punishment!!), no "harsh" punishment such as "caning".... you get the drift
Zambia- severe "caning/beating" for being drunk in public or stealing. Animal poaching = death penalty imposed immediately with no trial or court appearance....
US prisons are not a deterrent currently whereas in Singapore even "minor" offenses are treated "severely" by USA standards= lower crime rate???
You already know I am against "beating or mistreating" children but I don't place an occasional "spanking" in that category when done in a non angry/controlled fashion.
How is the "nonviolent" discipline working in this (sinful/ non ideal) society currently??
Elaine
I know you have family that are in the teaching profession. Have you had a discussion with them re: current classroom management techniques and how they are working with todays children?? From my vantage point in N. Ca. the public schools are rapidly descending into "anarchy" with little to no discipline enforced!!!! The main public grade school in Yreka's Principal lives as one of my neighbors. From what he says and what my son says it is really "out of control"!! We are rapidly descending back to the "law of the jungle".
I am not saying we need corporeal punishment in school but there has been a breakdown of the "family unit" and "respect for others" and "family values including discipline" that is now overwhelming the school system and society. I see it daily in the ER. Drugs and alcohol are a big part of the problem but so are the factors I've mentioned above. Also the continued diminishing of "God" in our society is having "terrible" consequences!! Honestly I don't see a solution short of "Christ's return"!!
I don't have the answers but I am unwilling to give up the fight for "civility" quite yet.
One thought that might be considered would be enforced 2 year military service for every student immediately after high school. The military instills "discipline" very effectively and this works overseas in Switzerland quite nicely.
I am not against an occasional spanking to get my point across to my kids (they are all grown now) but more "ideal methods" should also be used if they are working in a given situation.
Look forward to more thoughts on this subject.
Fred
Fred, my son was a high school teacher for about six years. The "helicopter" parents were the real problems: those who expected their children to receive top grades, their lack of work notwithstanding.
Now teaching in a community college, everyone with a H.S. diploma or GED is admitted. Most are sorely lacking in ability to write coherently, and so many simply do not make it. But disciplining adults is simple: they are excluded from the classroom and considered as adults. One excellent reason not to teach K-12!
Agreed that teachers should not be given permission to use corporal punishment as there is no way to determine the severity. I would not want my small child to be spanked in school when he is not spanked at home. But I am keenly aware of the difficulties that teacher's face but cannot offer a solution to the problem caused by lack of discipline at home. Many of us were told: "If you are disciplined at school you can expect even harsher at home" which kept us in line. This is impossible today with children who are "latch-key" kids and parents are often not at home. It's a national problem that has no easy solutions.
Elaine
I have a son who teaches highschool History, Civics, and with a mandated Georgia History and Civics.
He is three years from retirement and has been awarded teacher of the year time and again.
Last year, first day of world history, a young male entered the classroom and said: I plan to give you nothing but trouble all year long. My son said, It will be a short year for you. The kid said why?
My son said: I only have to call the principal's office for the Sheriff and they will be here in 5 minutes or less. You will be handcuffed and taken to the police station. You will have to wait there until your parents come and sign for you. Depending on the charges, there may be a fine and a recommendation from the judge to be put in special studies for trouble-makers. Or you can take your time to decide your course of action. As for now, you are my student--welcome to World History. The kid ended up the year in the upper third of the class and signed up for all the classes my son taught.
Tom Z
Unfortunately the "don't spare the rod proponents" compare using it with doing nothing to train up a child. They are both ends of a spectrum of child-rearing. The "don't spare the rod" methods need to be compared to holistic, healthy, empowering methods of training a child that don't use the rod.
If those who don't do much to train their children started using the rod on them I suspect that they still wouldn't be trained, other than in "hitting is ok" when you are bigger and more powerful. It is who the parents are, and how they are with themselves and with their kids that is of most importance. Not whether the rod is used or not.
"You already know I am against "beating or mistreating" children but I don't place an occasional "spanking" in that category when done in a non angry/controlled fashion."d
I agree with you. Thanks for your insight.
kinda like being just a little bit pregnant, eh Friend?
Tom,
Thanks for posting.
I would be interested in the rest of the story:
Why did the student say......"I plan to give you nothing but trouble all year long "
Discipline seems to me to be an "act" that brings about learning in the process. Kind of like a "heads up button" or "reset button". Different situations require different responses for that to happen.
Did Paul on the Damascus Road get a "spanking" from God??
Did Moses, after he struck the rock in anger, receive a "spanking" from God that didn't allow him to enter Canaan?? Yet God raised him, took him to heaven and later sent him (as Christ's friend) to encourage Him when He needed it most??
The trouble with the choice of "either/ or" is there is no room for "kinda being a little pregnant" so to speak. :>)
I see a God who doesn't take any "option" off the table in His attempts to "save us" from our path of self destruction!!!
He wants to speak in a "still small voice" but for some (many) folks that method doesn't work, unfortunately. Rather than "giving up" in frustration with our "stubborn resolve" to have "our way" (leading to our destruction) He occassionally "ups the ante" so to speak at the risk of being misunderstood but in order to get our attention so that He can "reason with us" in His tremendous "love for us"!!
Donna, maybe you were a kid who "never needed" a spanking similar to my one daughter, for which I am "thankful"!!! But because I didn't want to "give up" on my other 2 kids I spanked them (rarely) to hit the "reset" button and amazingly "it worked"!!
If you could talk to them today, as I did last night , you would learn that they didn't think I was "harsh" or "mean" to them in any way!! They did however "learn" that when Dad takes the "discipline" to the spanking level it was "serious" but the ONLY reason I ever did that, in retrospect, was out of my "love for them"!!
I hope you can understand what I am saying.
By the way we had this discussion over our weekly "family reunion" for dinner together with the kids and grandkids where the "come now let us reason together" talks often occur!!
All the best
Fred
After Elijah heard the still small voice...did he tell the groups of 50 enemy soldiers......"time out"?
"After Elijah heard the still small voice...did he tell the groups of 50 enemy soldiers......"time out"?"
Applying a text about enemy soldiers to kids is a frightening example of how much we need to learn about appropriate exegesis.
I regretfully admit that my parents employed a yardstick "persuader" when I was little, and I also occasionally spanked my young children, because we didn't know a better way. I am so thankful that my children have learned how to discipline their children in a less traumatic way. I have to add that I have always known God as a loving Father, in spite of some of the "fear of God" instilled by my church, so I think my parents must have done a lot of things right.
Thank you, Carrol, for sharing. Somewhere in your youth and childhood, someone did something good - 'cause you are one of the sweetest, kindest persons I know!
Usually when this topic is brought up the response is, “My parents spanked me and I turned out all right.” To disavow spanking would somehow be to discredit one’s own parents and one’s own sense of moral development. People usually parent the way they were parented unless they make a conscious effort to change. Just because a disciplinary action has been done for ages does not give it immunity from questioning its effectiveness.
In most areas of life, when given information that will enhance one’s job performance or one’s ability to advance in their career this information is received gladly and incorporated into their life skills. It is the almost visceral resistance to vast amount of information regarding both the long and short term consequences spanking that amazes me. Especially when it comes from “Christian” people, and “Christian books”.
A parent may not hit or spank their child and still be an awful parent. It isn’t the abstaining from spanking alone that makes for good parenting. Just as Jesus said, removing a demon from the house alone will not suffice. Seven demons may take its place! Raising children in a non violent fashion takes a complete attitudinal change and a paradigm shift to one’s whole approach to children in general. Choosing not to spank is only the first step.
Having come from a family that did not use corporal punishment, as a young parent I came to my own understanding on this topic by studying Ellen White. The trajectory of her counsel was to train children in self-government and self control . Study the rose, the pink, or lily, she said. A rude touch, a violent effort would only break the delicate stems. It is little attentions, often repeated. Had she been living in our day, I am confident she would have enthusiastically endorsed non violence child rearing methods.
As to Biblical guidance, the God I worship is the God revealed in the life and teachings of Jesus. You have heard it said, spare the rod and spoil the child, but I say unto you, he who lives by the rod will die by the rod. It would be better to tie a millstone around one’s neck and be thrown in the ocean than to hurt one of God’s little ones.
Most adults who "turned out alright" will credit their parent's training. This does not validate that their upbringing was all it should be, as most children are able to overcome very bad childhoods. I have a nephew who became very successful, but still confesses that his father beat him unmercifully--which was the way his father was brought up. Most parents know only their own childhood training and unless they make changes, will repeat those same type of disciplines.
Sadly, there are no mndated school courses on parenting. It is something that nearly everyone will, at some time, find themselves. Yet few have studied the best skills to be applied in the most difficult task there is. Compared to most professions demanding years of training, good parenting is far more difficult and most are totally untrained and simply imitate their parent's.
Corporal punishment means that the parent has only one method of discipline, and applies it for any and all infractions, making it of no effect. The most violent countries, historically, or those who have physically punished growing children; while the most pacifis, use almost no corporal punishment: Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands. There is a definite correlation between childhood and adult violence. The "Christian" U.S. has the highest prison population of most every nation.
Elaine
My parents had a "Board of higher education" hanging on the wall in the kitchen at home. They saw it on a "road trip", thought it was "humorous", bought it but never used it. Us kids saw it, thought it was "funny", but never "feared' our parents!!!
We also had a "dog house" hanging on the same wall. I must admit I frequented that "house" on more than one occasion.
:>)
Fred
My first memory is running for my life with a wet diaper slapping me on my tiny legs as I ran from my mother. She was switching my legs because I was running from her and I was running out of fear.
What on earth could my crime have been to have been so awful that each step I took brought a switch stinging my soft flesh? What really gets to me is that she could have scooped me up at any time, but she chose to met out this terrible punishment.
She was a very old lady at my mercy during her final years. I had a choice, I could let those feelings from my childhood wash over me and give her a taste of what I had received.... or I could pray for the Lord to help me forgive her and to love her. Thank God he came to my rescue!
There is a reason that Elder Abuse is huge.
Books by Alice Miller saved my sanity.
Anyone that wants to quote the Bible about sparing the rod and spoiling the child needs to have an explanation of what that means. No Shepard would ever beat his sheep with the rod that he carried. It was used to pull the straying one back to safety.
It is NOT Christian to beat one's children. Can anyone ever believe that Jesus would do such a thing!
Thank you so much, Ali, for your testimony. So often the little brothers and sisters that God has placed within our homes and given us the responsibility to love and care for - are hungry, tired, over stimulated, bored, need attention and conversation we neglect them until they become a perceived problem then we hit them. Most of the "mis-behavior" of children is preventable.
You, Ali, remember the switch. So many have buried those memories - but they resurface when approaching Father God. The inability to be close to him is excused by the fact that he is holy and good and we are poor and wretched and deserve to be switched.
Punishment is connected directly to fear. We run from God because we fear him and are afraid of punishment, which obviously we deserve - our parents have made sure we know that!
Donna, some of your comments say it much better than I could so I will just add this.
I was spanked growing up. I have distinct memories of my mother talking with a friend about how to spank a kid...(cup your hand so it makes a big noise, don't spank in anger, make them sit in a room for 20 minutes to build suspense, use infrequently). When my husband and I had kids he was dead set against spanking while I still held onto my "I was raised with an occasional spanking and it didn't hurt me" UNTIL one day it dawned on me.....pre-kids I worked as an elementary school teacher and loved it. Every day I worked with children teaching them and keeping an orderly environment--without laying a hand on any of them. (If I had I would be brought up on charges and would have lost my job). If I can maintain control over a group of 20 without physical discipline why would I need to do that with my own dear kiddos? No more spanking in our house!
I keep this in mind....if the discipline is correct the undesired behavior will self eliminate. That means sometimes I have to come up with more ideas than a 'time-out,' and trust me there is much more out there than a spanking or time-out it just takes a little self-education and some creative thought. Alas, not to end on a cliche but one must put more studying time into getting a driver's license than one is required to to have children.
Thank you, Tricia, for telling your story. You make a wonderful point about discipline in the school environment. And your "ah ha" moment precious. You are absolutely right with your statement, "If discipline is correct the undesired behavior will self eliminate." Many spank without ever stopping to question - why is the child acting that way? What could I have done to prevent the situation from occurring. So often the child is only following an inevitable chain of events that the parent or caregiver set place and failed themselves to control.
Donna, I find the question of why children lie fascinating. I was also told not to lie and to tell the truth, yet as a child I was taught how often unsafe it was to tell the truth. Have noticed that many times with kids when the whole process of treating kids is a set up to teach them to lie despite the words against lying. Then the kids get blamed. Adults are often incredibly complicit in setting up kids to seemingly do wrong then to be punished, when the adults have far more responsibility for the actions of the kids than do the kids themselves.
If I had to choose between lying and having the hell beat out of me - I'd lie.
So often - children's fantasies are interpreted as "lies" and thus the natural creativity of little people is squashed in the bud.
I will always recall a moment when as a fourth grader, an incident occurred that was made into a much larger infraction. I was truthful when I said I was not the instigator, and my mother attended the school conference with me and said that although I was certainly not a perfect child, that she knew that I would never lie. Her "standing up for me" was so important, knowing that she trusted me to be truthful, not necessarily to be perfect--which is a difference.
My parents also told me that any problem I caused at school would be considered "worse" when it got back to them. This was something for most kids that kept them in line. Those adults who claim that in spite of spankings the "turned out all right." But without them who can say that the results would be the same?
Nearly daiy, the news report a small child who was beaten or "punished" by extreme measures and with often fatal results. By thinking that "spanking" is O.K., who measures the degree?
Elaine
Alas a story.
I can't recall the "Mistiake" I do recall the punishment. I adored my dad. I was not afraid of him.
Yet if I did a sufficient wrong there would be a spanking, a hug, and a kiss. This time, I was instructed to go out to the wood shet and get a suitable paddle with which to be spanked. I searched. All I could find was a slab from an orange crate with a nail in one end.
I brought it in and with a whimper, I said: "Please don"t use the end with the nail in it." I was paddled without the nail, hugged, and kissed.
Years later my dad told me. I also most cracked him up.
I was never spanked in anger. I was never spanked without clear and well defined cause. I was never left in doubt as to my standing in the family. When all four of us children needed a spanking. I always stood at the head of the line.
Addendum
While a greeter at the LLU Church. The General Lesson Study was on Child Management. The woman teacher kept saying she was in favor of Capital Punishment. Of course everyone understood her to mean corporal punishment. Never-the-less in 30 minutes of Capital Punishment embarassed titters could not be surpressed. We at the door could hear over the speaker system had difficulty keeping our composure.
Tom Z.
Thank you Donna for this beautiful, enlightning, conforting article.
Our adventist organnization,in their beggining, had "suffered"the influencce or our german church leaders... both my parents were of german origin. So in our home physical punishment was a norm although my father, a loving pastor never spank us. His way of correcting us was to read a text of the bible and prayer. The meating ending always in both of us embracing and crying.
Thank youy for your article... may God bless you
Sincerely
E.M. Berger
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