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First Week of Advent: The Annunciation
Advent is a season that Adventists should love—it is part of our name, after all! It is a season of four weeks preceding the celebration of the birth of Jesus; it prepares us to welcome him at his first advent, while also anticipating his second advent. The scripture readings used in churches of many denominations have this dual focus, as do the hymns. We hear the promises of the Old Testament, and the call of John the Baptist to prepare, and the angelic messages to Mary and to Joseph. Hymns urge “Sleepers, wake!” and “Prepare the royal highway, the King of kings is near!”
Advent prepares for Christmas, but holds it at a distance. Calendars count down the days, while the Advent wreath counts the four weeks, as anticipation builds. But Christmas is not yet—so the baby does not lie in the manger, and Christmas carols are not sung. “Silent Night” may be playing in malls and coffee houses in mid-November, but won’t be sung in a great many churches until December 24, when Christmas begins. And when Christmas comes, the celebration will last for 12 days, until Epiphany, January 6. Advent says it is coming, but it is not here yet—and we use the time not in premature celebration, but to prepare our hearts.
In the Scriptures and songs of Advent, Mary figures prominently. She, after all, was the one to whom the good news first came. She was the one who held the Promise within her in bodily form for nine months. She was the preacher who first brought forth the Word to our world. But Mary is a difficult figure for Protestants to contemplate—no doubt in reaction to what we see as Catholicism’s over-emphasis. Ellen White is a typical evangelical in this regard. She says very little about Mary in The Desire of Ages. There is no Annunciation and no Visitation in her account. We meet Mary and Joseph on the road to Bethlehem.
And yet Luke’s account begins long before then, with angelic messages to Zachariah and to Mary. Luke gives us both the Annunciation and the Visitation, and both Catholics and Protestants have mined these stories for treasures of meaning over the centuries. Typical are some of the reflections that Roland Bainton gathered for his Martin Luther’s Christmas Book, first published in 1948.
Luther helped make these stories come alive for me. For many today, I think, the story of Christmas is merely a tale of history, told of something that happened back then. Oh, we like to hear it. It’s a moving story, a story full of meaning, a story of something important that happened two thousand years ago. I suggest we need to learn to read the story so that it speaks to us, now. And that’s what Luther invites us to.
In his reflections on the Annunciation (Luke 1:26-38), Luther notes Bernard of Clairvaux’s observation that this story tells of three miracles, not one. First, that God and man could be united in this promised Child. Second, that a virgin could be a mother. And the third and greatest miracle--that Mary should believe it.[i] Imagine yourself in her shoes. Maybe 14 years old. Not quite sure even of what transpires between a husband and wife. And now told that she would be a mother. And she believes. Did she doubt, even for a moment? It doesn’t appear so. Contrast her with Joseph. It took a vision to convince him that she hadn't been out behind the barn with some young man--or Roman soldier. Not Mary. She heard, and she believed.
Martin Luther said of this, "Had she not believed, she could not have conceived." But "she held fast to the word of the angel because she had become a new creature."[ii] God's Word had made her this. And so must we, too, be transformed by the Word, day by day, that we might believe, and that we might cling in faith to God's Word, in spite of what our experience and our feelings might say.
And believe what? Believe what Isaiah prophesied: "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given." It's easy enough, Luther says, to believe that Jesus is the son of the Virgin and the Son of God. It's much harder "to believe that this Son of God is ours."[iii] To put ourselves in the position of Mary, and to hear and to believe the promise that Christ is come to us. That is the incredible news promised to Mary and to us alike--that Christ comes for you, for me; to be, truly, God with us.
"Truly it is marvelous in our eyes that God should place a little child in the lap of a virgin and that all our blessedness should lie in him. And this Child belongs to all mankind. God feeds the whole world through a Babe nursing at Mary’s breast. This must be our daily exercise: to be transformed into Christ, being nourished by this food. Then will the heart be suffused with all joy and will be strong and confident against every assault."[iv]
Bill Cork is pastor of the North Houston and Spring Creek Seventh-day Adventist churches in Texas, and is a chaplain in the Texas Army National Guard.
[i] Roland Bainton, ed. Martin Luther’s Christmas Book (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1948), p. 15.
[ii] Ibid.
[iii] Ibid., p. 16.
[iv] Ibid.
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Thank-you, Bill. In our uberProtestant fear of Mariolatry we frequently miss out on the blessings of Mary's part of the story.
____________________________________________________
"be reverent in behavior, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good" titus 2:3
Thank you, Bill. I am one Adventist who is already appreciative of the blessings to be had from the Advent season. I learned it from a guest preacher, Mrs. Fleming Rutledge, while attending some Sunday night sermons at an Anglican church here in Toronto. Mrs. Rutledge, an Anglican priest, was one of the first women to be ordained in the US Episcopalian Church in the 1970's. Mrs. Rutledge is a gifted author and speaker who without a doubt has received her call from God for her ministry. She is a brilliant argument in favor of women's ordination.
I was frankly surprised to learn from Mrs. Rutledge that the Advent which receives focus is the second Advent.
Adventists worry too much about following a pagan festival and in the process turn their backs on a golden opportunity to preach the gospel. It does not matter that Jesus was not born on December 25. Take every opportunity to share what we treasure.
She also said "Advent begins in the dark." She gently teased the local pastor for having a Christmas tree before December 24. The Advent season is intended as a period of sober reflection. In the dark waning days of the year, the focus is on judgement and accountability to God. This topic is not intended as a fear tactic, but to help parishioners to appreciate the need we all have for the Savior who is eventually revealed. We do not rush ahead to the lights, we linger for a while and ponder about our need and how those needs are all met in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.
Adventists need have no anxiety about Mary. I would tell fearful believers that as long as our reflections on Mary are based on the Gospels, nothing will go wrong. It is interesting that in the gospels Mary receives more focus than Joseph. Perhaps it is not too surprising, because God also chose women to first witness that Jesus had risen from the grave.
Advent begins in the dark but eventually our salvation comes in the Person who is revealed:
"Thy light is come...."
Andrew Dykstra
After leaving Adventism, i attended a little, Anglican church in my rural area. The first Christmas, I truly got my eyes opened to how others celebrate Christmas in their church. It was awesome and humbling at the same time. It helped to rid some of the scales that were attached to my eyes, concerning those who don't "Have The Truth'.
Rachel has lined up other writers for the next three weeks, and given us each a focus. We're not following any particular lectionary, and we haven't consulted one another, so it will be interesting to see what the other writers in this series have to say.
As background reading, I'd encourage anyone interested to take a look at the Scriptures appointed in the Revised Common Lectionary. This is a three year cycle of Scripture readings, with each week having a reading from the Old Testament, a Psalm, the Epistles, and a Gospel. In year A, Matthew dominates, in year B, Mark, and in year C, Luke. http://lectionary.library.vanderbilt.edu/lections.php?year=B&season=Advent
And for truly alternative ideas for celebrating Advent and Christmas, check out Advent Conspiracy: http://ac.wcrossing.org/
Bill
The word Advent in the corporate name Seventh-day Adventist Church was chosen in regard for the second coming of Jesus. The founders wanted to stay far away from the ritual of the birth of Christ so zealously observed by Rome. The founders felt that the focus what on Mary and thus was a part of Maryology.
A great Uncle, Dr. Samuel Zwemer wrote many books but three are his tribute to the Gospel
The Glory of the Manger
The Glory of the Cross
The Glory of the Empty Tomb
In our time Dr. Heppenstall expanded on the idea of the Incarnation in his book "The Man Who is God"
Tom Z
I'm sure the writer meant well but this article is nothing but marion worship. Spectrum and the author should be ashamed for giving so much glorification to a mere mortal. There is absolutely nothing divine about Mary just like there was nothing divine with Joseph. Just because she was the fleshly carrer for Jesus makes her no more than that.
Questing,
Can you explain which bits of the article you feel constitute "marion worship"?
I agree, Mary is in no way divine, but she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the Mother of our lord, so God clearly bestowed on her a great honor, for which the bible tells us "all nations shall call [her] blessed".
Do you call her blessed?
I look forward to continuing this conversation with you Questing.
Yours,
Tim
Tim - Clement
-------------
'Marion worship"? Not sure what that is or how the person got that idea. Read Scripture. Read what it says about Mary, in the Gospels and in Acts. No Christians think there was anything divine about Mary. All say she was a mere mortal. But she was blessed by God, and all ages are to call her blessed. She was the first Christian, and the one who for 30 years was the caregiver of our Lord. She followed his ministry, she was at the cross when the 12 abandoned him; she was in the upper room with them when the Spirit fell. Her life is an example to us--Scripture says so much about her for a reason.
She is blessed but I see no reason why the Adventist must celebrate a pagan Advent period before the winter solstice. Mary was special and set apart much like today's Adventist young woman, many of whom could have fulfilled the role.
Bill, you should be careful in your writing. You said that "in the Scriptures and songs of Advent, Mary figures prominently". Well, yes and no. Her story is, of course, told in the Gospel but then not much is said about her in the rest of the Bible. In the same way, John the Baptist's story is told in the Gospel but nothing is much told about him in the rest of the Bible. As he said, he had to decrease and Christ had to increase. Same thing with Mary. She had to decrease once her role was fulfilled so that Christ may increase. God knew that people would use her in order to overshadow Christ's ministry and you can be sure that He didn't want that.
Though there are lessons to be drawn from Mary's testimony (as there are lessons to be drawn from John the Baptist's testimony), the focus should always be on Christ. The first advent was about Christ, not Mary and it points to the second advent, which is about Christ as well, not Mary.
The whole article talks more about Mary than Christ. This whole article REEKS of catholicism. It makes me sad.
Thank you Anonymous and Bargain Zero. There is no guarantee....we do not even know if Mary will be in heaven. She was NOT immaculate nor divine. God did not need her. He could have usedanyone for she was not sinless.
Careful Bill Cork. Your Catholic roots are showing!
Bill, they are on to you. It's all part of the secret Jesuit conspiracy. Your cover is blown.
I believe we are all blessed and I do not believe Mary to be the first Christian. She did not even understand her Son's role. She saw herself as a mother. It was not untl later she understood the message.
Questing,
I think what is sad is that you are not willing to engage with the biblical story of the incarnation. Mary was chosen by God to bring the second person of the Trinity into our world. Whoever God chose, he chose for a reason, and what an honor to be chosen for such an important and wonderful role. You are correct that God created Mary, and so Mary has nothing to be arrogant about - and she is not. Instead, her soul magnifies the Lord (not herself) and her spirit rejoices in God her saviour! (again check your bible).
I also think it is sad if your definition of marion worship means that an article spends more time talking about Mary than Jesus. What does this mean for your definition of worship? Do we worship people by talking about them? If I talk about my dad more than Jesus in any given conversation, am I guilty of idolatry? What is worship to you?
When we talk about Mary, we see in her a wonderful example of faith, love, hope and discipleship. What is not to like? Mary's vocation was to bring Jesus to us. We see in John's Gospel that she tells the servants to "Do whatever he tells you", and this is her message for us to. Her entire life was dedicated to bringing Jesus into the world, she quite literally the gateway through which Jesus (and therefore our salvation) came into this world. This was the work she was given to do by God, and she did it. She also suffered greatly for it ("a sword will pierce your heart too"- again check your bible!) as she watched her innocent son die for the sins of the world.
Do you have role models in your? I know that I do, and Mary is a great role model to have.
Tim
Tim - Clement
-------------
"She is blessed but I see no reason why the Adventist must celebrate a pagan Advent period before the winter solstice. "
Advent is not pagan. It is thoroughly Christian. It speaks of hoping for the coming of Christ, both his first Advent and his second Advent. In fact, the Advent wreath and the Christmas tree were both introduced to Christianity by Lutherans in the 16th century--Catholics objected for a long time on having them in churches, seeing them "too Protestant."
"This whole article REEKS of catholicism."
By quoting Martin Luther?
"Bill, they are on to you. It's all part of the secret Jesuit conspiracy. Your cover is blown."
Good thing they don't know about my (former) Opus Dei connections.
>>> And she believes. Did she doubt, even for a moment? It doesn’t appear so...
There are several possible explanations fo this
1) The messenger was so clearly supernatural that the message was easily believed
2) She believed, but without a sense of certainty but with an attitude of acting like it was certain
3) She, like many people today, was extremely gullible
None of these require her to be unique - there are many people that would have done as well.
Like much of religion, we interpret the limited available data in a way that is pleasing to us. I suspect we even read articles like this one to fit our preconceptions.
But I disagree that the article is Marion Worship, and I suspect Fr Jim would also not see it that way - I am sure he has been exposed to RC who emphasis Mary too much - there are extremists of many persuasions in all denominations.
/Bevin
As editor of the spirituality section here at Spectrum, I asked Bill to write this article. It was not Bill's idea to write a whole article on Mary or Advent, though I knew that Bill's intelligence, experience, and commitment to Adventism would make him the ideal writer for this opening Advent piece. Why is it that we can write whole articles and Sabbath School quarterlies on other characters in the Bible without being idolators? It is only Mary who is taboo. Little girls and boys in Sabbath School are encouraged to have King David, Joseph, Abraham or Esther as role models, but they are almost never taught to have Mary as a role model, the first "evangelist" who delivered Jesus to the world-- the one who said "Yes" to the will of God without reservation. Must our fear of Catholicism manipulate the way we read and appreciate the biblical record?
I can see nothing in Bill's article that can be construed to be idolatry. And as Bill points out, Martin Luther, our great Protestant champion, was himself a great admirer of the one the Bible calls "blessed" among women.
Bill Cork is not asking us to worship Mary or to communicate with her. And I really do NT believe that he would do so. He simply is asking us to note, to pay attention to, and to remember this remarkable female who was a woman.
Quoting Samir Selmanovic:
"Our situation of “knowing God” is thus similar to that of a baby being held by its mother. In her hands, the baby does not “understand” the mother but rather experiences being known by the mother. In the same way, the revelation of God we have received from God is not just coming from the words of our Scriptures but also through this gift of life that holds us. Life itself is a revelation, a site where God sustains and transforms us. We are unable to grasp God, even as we are being transformed by God’s grasp. In this act of holding us, God is like a mother, revealed in a way that is real but remains a secret.
Mira, a woman poet in sixteenth-century India acclaimed by Hindus, Christians, and Muslims, wrote:
God has
a special interest in women
for they can lift this world in their breast
and help Him
comfort.
"Bill Cork is not asking us to worship Mary". He would never be so bold as to do that! There are a great many other females who had an equally important role in the bible. Who cares about the annunciation? Who cares that Martin Luther called her blessed? He was catholic, why wouldn't he? He did much for the reformation but he did not know a great many biblical truths that we know today.
Rachel Davies, you mean that there are not better topics to select than this? Do you write these articles to spur biblical debate? Please tell me, is that what Spectrum is trying to do? Where is the gospel in this or the true advent which is looking forward to Christ our Lord - none other. You probably won't even be able to find Mary in the multitudes. She's not going to be sitting on the trinity seat.
I don't care how much you censore me and call me "not progressive" in my thinking or a true theologian. Write on things that are not contentious and not RCC. Enough already!
"Who cares about the annunciation?"
Obviously God did, and the angel Gabriel, whom he sent, and Mary, who heard the news, and Jesus, who was the news, and Luke, who wrote it down for us.
"There are a great many other females who had an equally important role in the bible."
Which said yes to God to carry his Son? Which carried her creator for nine months? Which gave birth to him in sweat and pain? Which nursed him at her breast? Which changed his diapers? Which taught him of his Father? Which took him to the temple? Which pushed him into public view? Which sat at the foot of the cross? Which joined with the apostles to pray for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit? She is unique, and a role model, and nothing for Protestants to be ashamed of.
"Where is the gospel in this ..."?
The Gospel is about Jesus, the Son of God, the Second person of the Trinity, who became man for us, lived among us, died for us, rose for us, and is coming again. This is all about him, and receiving him by faith alone. The Gospel is the heart of it. That's Luther's point.
Why don't you write about the angels singing to the shepherds then? The gospel has NOTHING to do with Mary? She was His mother - NOTHING more!
If you want to write articles on announcement....write what Jesus said: He IS the truth, the light, the way. He is coming again..let's focus on that. THAT is the advent annunciation.
Trust me. God could have sent His Son any way. Notice how I am NOT capitalizing the word "Mother". Why does that word need to be capitalized? She isn't divine!
Other people have other articles to write in this series. This is on one Scripture passage. Read it.
Really? God could have sent his Son without a human mother? He wouldn't have been human, then.
Why are you so angry? Why do you have such contempt? Why should you be so angry at discussion of a Scripture? I don't get it.
Read the story of Mary to see what it teaches you about how you should believe in Jesus and have faith in him. That's the point of the article. Reread it with a little openness.
Questing-->
Which religion has the whole truth? Within that religion, what specific subgroup embodies and lives out the whole truth?
Selmanovic states: "We look at others and say, “We are insiders with God, and God is an insider with us. We are right and in, and they are wrong and out.” We thus keep God in our servitude, in a cage built with words, meanings, and the teachings of our religions."
Selmanovic asks, “Have we turned our religious texts, traditions, and rituals into containers and dispensers of God?”
God has placed each of us where He needs us. Is one place better than the other? Who determines this? Wherever we may be either by our own choice or Gods, we must ask ourselves: What must I do to inherit eternal life? No one size fits all.
If the grass is greener on the other side, what keeps me where it is dry?
'She was His mother - NOTHING more!'
Questing
--------------
Well Well. Do you plan to buy your mother a Christmas present? Or was she just a container to incubate you for 9 month?
You should actually read and reflect on what you write.
Santa Claus ain't coming to your house, that's for sure.
From one who respects women and adores them
Pax et Bonum
Edgar
I am not a Catholic, nor an Adventist. I am still searching for spirituality of any kind, and happen to read this. Being somewhat neutral, it looks to me as if it is okay to write about anyone else in the Bible, except for Mary. I have seen articles and Bible studies on every character possible. I don't view Bill's article as any different. It is not Mary's fault that some people use her as an idol! I don't understand why Bill is being so harshly treated by some "loving" Christians. Where is the Gospel in that? By the way what is with the question "where is the Gospel in that?" She is mentioned in the Gospel more than many Bible characters. And another question, why is it okay to write about Ellen G. White's virtues, but not Mary's? To an outsider she may even look as being worshipped by your church.
Dear Edgar, as a matter of fact my mother will not be getting a present since she has passed and since I do not celebrate Christmas with presents to family. We appreciate each other everyday and give thanks presents are not necessary.
I do not care about articles about Mary, except this forum seems to have more positive things to say about Mary who did nothing more than give birth. Actually, it would be nice to see some good, fair articles on Ellen White. I know they wil not be writen here.
What I have a problem with is the veneration. Why DOES he capitalize anything associated with Mary? Please answer that. She is not a god to be reverenced. Jesus is a God to be reverenced.
Apology
-----------
Questing
1. I apologize if I may have offended you in reference to your mother. I can only hope your mother was good and that you loved her. In my job I see many who cannot say that of their mother's.
2. Let me put it to you this way
You seem upset because you sense that Mary is being overemphasized. I can understand that.
BUT can you understand me when I sense that your comments appear to be another downer, 'party pooper', killjoy comment
3. For many people the world is harsh. They struggle to live. Many love and adore their mothers. Their
mothers are special. Many men will kill if their mother's are insulted. Many women feel that their mother's are their best friend. A woman losing her mother is not the same as a man losing his father.
4. So what is wrong in mentioning Mary. Why is the immediate impulse 'Catholic, idolatory'? Mary is part of Christmas. Read the article again and see what you think. I think it is even
5. BUT Questing, even if it is a bit too gushy. Don't you have the generosity of spirit to say, well it is Christmas, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.
6. Just because Ellen G White gets a lot of bad press does not mean Mary should not get a mention.
7. D M Canright who wrote SeventhDay Adventism Renounced was 'the best man we ever had' until he left and then was villified. He would not denounce Adventist people. Many were his friends, He did not
say EGW was of the 'devil' or a 'false prophet' He was insightful to realize that while he believed she
was wrong, self deluded, yet she was human. I think more people would be interested in her as a person if the option was not perfect v imperfect, prophet of God v False prophet.
8. So we all need to be generous, to give each other the benefit of the doubt, and if we disagree not to use sledge hammers like the Taliban
Happy Christmas
Pax et Bonum
Edgar
Edgar, no need. I was not offended and appreciate your thoughtfulness.
What I would like to see happen on this forum is really no consequence except for the fact that most of the articles written on this forum do not seem to be fair.
Additionally, with so many beautiful topics in the bible - why the annunciation and Mary? Why not a more balanced approach - there was MUCH that lead up to the birth of Jesus. The real annunciaton was given by Christ Himself all through the old testament - not with Mary like the author claims.
From Questing "Who cares that Martin Luther called her blessed? He was catholic, why wouldn't he?"
I don't know why you are vilifying Luther for this. If I recall, it was Gabriel who said that all would call her blessed. Does that not mean anything to you? Questing, I really think you are letting your anti-Catholicism interfere with common sense. Mary is not being worshiped. Bill Cork is not singing 'Totus Tuus' or 'Salve Regina' here.
Ulrike made a good point. Why is that Sister White can be placed on a pedestal and all her virtues be revered by conservative Adventists but Mary cannot be held up as a role model and as having a special place in the work of God without resorting to or being accused of Mariolatry?
You are going to the extreme end of the spectrum by avoiding any seemingly veneration of Mary. In so doing, however, you are being absurd and illogical.
Dear Darrell,
As I mentioned before yet will say again, I thought that Spectrum was an SDA-sponsored forum but realized once I started reading the articles that it's like being in wonderland and everything is skewed. I don't mind articles on Mary-what about doing articles on Mary on mother's day?
Every other article is either a primer on catholicism, learning about pilgrimmages and of course, annunciations.
If this were truly an objective forum, than yes, it would say write some positive things about Ellen White. She is not ALL negative.
As for Martin Luther I am not villifying him but would expect him to respond that way.
Clarification: "If this were an objective forum."
I meant to say: "If this were an objective SDA forum.
It's hard to get fear and logic to be in the same room
Questing, I have just spent considerable effort taking Bill, and others on this site, to task for anti-Catholicism. I do not think that they are trying to introduce Catholic doctrine here or anywhere else. If they were you would not see me complaining. But see how other Protestants regard Mary.
Luther on Mary:
[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).
It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother .. (Sermon, Christmas, 1522)
Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).
It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).
Annunciation, by John Donne
Salvation to all that will is nigh;
That All, which always is All everywhere,
Which cannot sin, and yet all sins must bear,
Which cannot die, yet cannot choose but die,
So, faithful Virgin, yields himself to lie
In prison, in thy womb; and though he there
Can take no sin, nor thou give, yet he'll wear
Taken from thence, flesh, which death's force may try.
Ere by the spheres time was created, thou
Wast in his mind, who is thy Son and Brother;
Whom thou conceiv'st, conceiv'd; yea, thou art now
Thy Maker's maker, and thy Father's mother;
Thou hast light in dark, and shut'st in little room
Immensity, cloistered in thy dear womb.
mary belongs to us all, not just adventism. I've heard a zillion times more about ellen white in my life than i could ever hear about mary. I don't mind some small degree of balance creeping in.
questing, you seek objectivity, but whether you realise it or not, your words come across as cold and hard with animosity and venom - and far from objective. Perhaps you personally are seeking that elusive objectivity that you can't find here, or any where else!
Or this from hymn #91 in the Seventh-day Adventist Hymnal:
O higher than the cherubim,
More glorious than the seraphim,
Lead their praises, Alleluia!
Thou bearer of the eternal Word,
Most gracious, magnify the Lord.
Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia.
Bill, you've just found another piece of information for the conspiracy theorists about how sadventism has been infiltrated by jesuit influences from beginning! Better not shake hands with anyone either, because you'll betray your masonic secrets!!!!
Do Knights of Columbus secrets count?
On a serious note ... why is it so hard for readers to engage the material that is actually written? I find the season of Advent brimming with rich symbolism and imagery that gets at the core of our Advent hope. I find the story of the Annunciation deep with meaning for what it means for us to believe the unbelievable things God says to us. This is about Christian faith where the rubber hits the road.
But so much of this conversation is about other stuff--fears, neuroses, quibbles. Why is it so hard to engage matters of faith ... of spirituality?
... because to encounter the living God in our human nakedness is enough to scare the bejesus out of us so we create distractions, resistances and dramas to avoid facing what promises so much.
Hi Bill,
I thought this was an excellent article, sensitively presented, dealing with a wonderful moment in our salvation history.
It is, as you say, sad that many did not want to engage with the substance of your article. It seems that people are afraid to be open to the Gospel, afraid to open their minds to receive God's word, The Word in a new way. And that is of course what the time of Advent is all about, preparing ourselves to receive the Word, in a new way.
The source of this paralysing fear seems to come from a deep-seated, but completely irrational (by which I mean individually unreasoned and unthought-out) anti-catholicism, and a related anti-paganism. We were all Pagans (in some sense) before we accepted the Gospel. By the Holy Spirit, we were converted. The same is true of pagan festivals. It is true that many Christian celebrations fall around the time of old pagan festivals. But these older festivals are converted (as we are) to tell the good news of the Gospel. As an example, Easter, previously a pagan festival about new life, is converted to a celebration of the new life of Christ's resurrection and our salvation.
We as humans need the seasons, different times to focus on different things, and different days to be particularly thankful for things. This is why we celebrate peoples birthdays and wedding anniversaries. It is not that we are not grateful to our family every day for being who they are, but rather that on a particular day, we have a chance to specifically remember them, and our commitment to them.
The same is true of religious festivals and seasons - we have a particular time of prayer and preparation prior to Christmas (Advent), to really prepare ourselves for receiving Jesus afresh. Similarly, we have a time (Lent) prior to Easter, to really prepare ourselves for the intense experience of Holy Week, culminating with the incredible joy of the resurrection day.
There is a time for sowing and time for reaping. We are not made to exist in one static state all through the year. So let us make the most of the seasons and festivals which the church gives us throughout the year, which are there for our edification and training as disciples of Christ.
Tim
Tim - Clement
-------------
Bill
If God sent the Angels to shephards. If it is recorded in detail in Scripture, I think it should be celebrated. I think Handel's Messiah is great---Ellen White thought not.
My first response was directed on your attaching the SDA Advent to the arrival of Jesus as a baby. Which it is not.
The ladder that reached from heaven to earth was finally in place--Joy to the World the Lord is Come!
Thank you for bringing the meaning of the Advent to our hearts and minds. Tom Z
It's not that our use of Advent applies to the first Advent, it is that the Advent prior to Christmas includes the Second Advent, too.
In the newly revised English translation of the Roman Missal for the First Sunday in Advent, the collect is:
Grant your faithful, we pray, almighty God,
the resolve to run forth to meet your Christ
with righteous deeds at his coming,
so that, gathered at his right hand,
they may be worthy to possess the heavenly kingdom.
In the Lutheran Book of Worship (1978):
Stir up your power, O Lord, and come. Protect us by your strength and save us from the threatening dangers of our sins, for you live and reign with the Father and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever.
Scriptures for the coming Sunday in the Revised Common Lectionary:
Isaiah 64:1-9
Psalm 80:1-7, 17-19
1 Corinthians 1:3-9
Mark 13:24-37
Adventists sometimes think we are the only ones who preach about the Second Advent (with sometimes a nod to the dispensationalists). Fact is, it is part of the preaching and teaching of every Christian church, and is embedded within this Advent season. It should open up some space for some fruitful conversation, I would think.
Bill I agree. I was just esplaining how things are: not how they should be. Tom
Tim - Clement wrote:
>>> There is a time for sowing and time for reaping. We are not made to exist in one static state all through the year. So let us make the most of the seasons and festivals which the church gives us throughout the year, which are there for our edification and training as disciples of Christ.
I appreciate this thought
/Bevin
Questing is correct, there is no reason to celebrate advent, Mary, or Christmas, since there was no virgin birth, The hebrew scriptures use the word young woman not the word for virgin, in Isaiah 7:14. But the translators of the septuagint messed up when they rendered it virgin. There was no expectation among Jews for a messiah born of a virgin. But for pagans the idea of a God/Man was part of thier mythology and that was used to make Jesus more acceptable to them. Matthew and Luke give completely different accounts of Jesus birth they truly cant be reconcilled by an unbiased person. Yeshua was a good man and wise teacher, most likely an enlightened individial, a buddha if you will. The Christ Mass was given to us by the most corrupt, repressive, and evil organization in history. It is a season of greed and excess. A good time to party and get to know your secretary better
Forgive me. I just have to point out that the terms being used are spelled:
--Marian
--Mariolatry
____________________________________________________
"be reverent in behavior, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good" titus 2:3
From Roy Folke "Questing is correct, there is no reason to celebrate advent, Mary, or Christmas, since there was no virgin birth, The hebrew scriptures use the word young woman not the word for virgin, in Isaiah 7:14. But the translators of the septuagint messed up when they rendered it virgin. There was no expectation among Jews for a messiah born of a virgin"
Really Roy? Is your anti-Catholicism so rampant that you are reinventing scripture? Yes, Isaiah could be translated as 'young woman' but that doesn't mean that it couldn't mean the other way and in the context of the NT, was to be translated that way. How about we let the scripture speak for itself instead of taking your interpretation?
Luke 1:30-34
"30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"
Mary had not had sex. She 'knew not a man' and in other interpretations, 'for I am a virgin'.
Pretty simple, Roy. I can't understand how your interpretation makes any sense in this context.
"I'm sorry Lord! How can I get pregnant for I am a young woman?"
Sounds like the perfect time TO get pregnant. Young and fertile!
Darrell are you familiar with the Hebrew words Almah and Bethulah, and the problems even fundementalist scholars will admit this creates when Matthew 1:23 cites Isaiah 7:14? Not
to mention contextual issues. When Matthew quotes the Old Testament he couldnt care less about the original context.
Do you know when Herod died? When Quirinius was governor of Syria? Doesn't this cast doubt on the veracity,and inspiration of scripture?
I am against the RCC and proudly so. I think we should always be against corruption and oppression wherever it exists
One other thing I am not reinventing scripture. I just have the courage to look at it critically.
Way off topic.
Roy, regardless it still doesn't change the fact that Mary made it clear that she had not been with a man and thus could not be pregnant. Whether Matthew took Isaiah out of context doesn't change that or Matthew's intention to portray exactly what we were to understand: that Mary was indeed a sexual virgin and thus was perplexed on how she could be pregnant.
why Pastor? Is it because if I am right it renders your article meaningless.
Advent season leading up to the Pagan Roman holiday that is really celebrating the birth of the Sun God. What's next, the keeping of Lent before Easter?
Hmm...I would think that someone with a name that came from Tolkien's mythology dealing with wizards, demi-gods, immortality of the soul and orcs, you'd be a little more lenient in your understanding of what is pagan or not, Illuvutar. ; )
Roy, you are not here to discuss the topic but to make your own rants against Christianity.
Fact is, Matthew got his reading of "parthenos" from the Septuagint, the Jewish translation of the Bible into Greek . He didn't invent it. And no Jews of the day argued with the translation. It's a non-issue.
Roy, "most corrupt, repressive, and evil organization in history" that would be the Communist party. And the NT quotes the LXX, so it must have been good enough for the early Christians.
illu, oddly the pagan Romans didn't notice that when they were persecuting the Christians for not being pagan. Jesus experienced Lent before Easter, so I'm with him.
I stumbled upon this, this afternoon and really quite enjoyed it. It is a youtube interview of an SDA writer who made Mary the subject of her book.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7kMjKSnf1E&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwb58ZZ5Vuw&feature=related
Bill,
I enjoyed your article as informative and thought provoking....
It appears that some individuals cannot appreciate some of it because it is an immediate threat to their belief systems, etc. It is one thing to not agree with the article ( or points within it ) but another to be so vociferous/antagonistic about it.
We are all entitled to our own beliefs and points of view here on Spectrum. While I do not agree with all points of view here, I still celebrate the fact that a forum like this exists outside of a traditional SDA church-sponsered venue. Simply put, if it were church-sponsered we would not be able to "talk".
The whole world is not contained just within adventism....
Kim
...nor truth, nor God
It's interesting that the majority of the comments posted in favor of celebrating the annunciation are from ex-SDAs or non-SDAs=99%. Nothing else needs to be said.
Too bad the Editors/writer could not find a more interesting topic to discuss on this forum.
One question to the writer: you never answered Questing's question on why you do capitalize "Mother" when referencing Mary - considering the fact you're an SDA pastor.
LaMoria,
As stated by me already ( by one who IS SDA ) this particular topic might not be suitable for you, but is fine by me :)
I guess this might make me THE 1 percent ?!?
Kim
LaMoria ... "Too bad the Editors/writer could not find a more interesting topic to discuss on this forum."
What don't you consider interesting? The Bible? Or simply this specific passage in Luke? Have you pondered it? God sends an angel to announce to a young woman that she's going to be the mother of her Savior (something that never happened before, and never happened since)! You don't find it "interesting" that your Creator humbled himself and filled a young girl's womb for 9 months, and then had to have his diapers changed by her, and had to drink her milk to live? Not interesting? The most astounding story in the universe, not interesting?
As to capitalizing "mother"--looks like once it has a capital and once it doesn't. Guess that would indicate the presence of a typo.
Then again, we might ask why Ellen White said of William Miller, that " he was indeed rightly called Father Miller" (LS 149)--with a capital "F."
"As to capitalizing "mother"--looks like once it has a capital and once it doesn't. Guess that would indicate the presence of a typo."
That what you want us to believe. The spiritually discerning among us, know that this is simply a covert attempt at perverting the truth. First it's one capital, then it's two, and before long all the "mothers" are capitalized. Next you will post images of Mary at your church, then you will have candled processionals, then you introduce the Rosary, then bow down to Mary, all ending in sacrificing your children to the Blessed Virgin. A typo is one explanation, but I find the above much more plausible.
In 45 years as organist for many Christian churches, I've come to appreciate the Advent season. I found this article informative and respectful. Spectrum is serving its readers well by initiating such articles AND by allowing expression of a whole spectrum of viewpoints.
Several Advent hymns have become favorites of mine, including, "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel" (the first of 3 hymns in the SDA Hymnal's "First Advent" section) and Charles Wesley's "Come, Thou Long Expected Jesus." (SDA Hymnal # 204; one of 22 hymns in the "Second Advent" section.)
In my experience, often a Christian hymn writer can communicate even better than the theologians the wonder and beauty and mystery of our shared experience.
It's all a love story!
First it's one capital, then it's two, and before long all the "mothers" are capitalized. Next you will post images of Mary at your church, then you will have candled processionals, then you introduce the Rosary,
John Mark
-------------------
So John Mark
1. How do you spend Christmas?
2. Is it a special time or is it just another day? When I was at Andrews, while the world celebrated Easter, PMC had the Gymnics talk about their work
3. Do you have kids or a wife? Do you buy them a card or a present? Or do you send the money to starving people in Somalia?
4. Do you light candles and sing carols, or do you count your money like Scrooge?
5. If your neighbors had a choice, would they rush to your place or someone else's?
6. Do you have a life? Do you participate in the life of the world and people = 'humanity'?
7. So what are you going to do on Christmas day? Even the Jehovah's Witnesses make it a special day. They bang on people's doors and irritate them?
If I were you I would not go to WalMart for one small thing could lead to another. First you rush the
doors, then you pepper spray people to get an edge, then you fight to get to the counter, then you wrestle the TV from someone else. Then finally triumphant you leave, to get robbed before you get to
the car.
The 'slippery slope' argument essentially kills everything. Being born might lead to you becoming a serial killer. Yes there are slippery slopes. But with Free Will you 'just say no'
Will you have joy this Christmas? Will you have fun
A very Merry Christmas to you
Pax et Bonum
Edgar
'Non Jesuit, but love candles, love the Messiah, love incense.' Non WalMart shopper.
PS did you know that Greeks, Buddhists, Moslems, myself use beads that look like a rosary. None of us are Catholic.
Here are some other Advent hymns from other traditions that have made their way into the Seventh-day Adventist Hymnal, in addition to the ones you mentioned, David:
117 "The Advent of Our God"
131 "Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming"
210 "Wake, Awake, for Night Is Flying"
211 "Lo! He Comes"
215 "The King Shall Come"
217 "The Church Has Waited Long"
333 "On Jordan's Banks the Baptist's Cry"
599 "Rejoice, Rejoice, Believers"
And there are many, many, more, in the Lutheran, Anglican, and Wesleyan traditions.
Bbbazusa,
Wow, I was just mentioning on another thread how this site doesn't get parody. I thought about pointing out that I was being sarcastic but figured that would ruin it. I love Christmas, candles, (for that matter I quite enjoy the Roman Catholic liturgy, I suppose with having a father who converted from Roman Catholicism, a bit of the culture is still in my blood), and I certainly would never get all conspiratorial about typos. Merry Christmas.
I got it, JM. :-)
Parody
----------
So John Mark
Who is the real you?
The killjoy or the joyful?
Which post is the Parody?
What is sad is that the parody view is a well entrenched life view of many?
In life you have to take a chance.
I believe you will have a fun filled Christmas IF you do not go to WalMart
Merry Christmas
Edgar
Thanks, Bill, apparently not all families were as sarcastic as mine. :-Egar, I trust you can figure it out. I will be quite joyful when Christmas break comes.
On a personal note, my love of the Advent season began when I was a student at Gettysburg Lutheran Seminary. When I was a Lutheran pastor, we began the tradition of lighting the Advent wreath at home. My wife is a lifelong Adventist. To make a bridge between her Sabbath observance and my Lutheranism, I lit each new candle on Friday night, at the beginning of the Sabbath. We sang the Lutheran service for Evening Prayer. We would light the wreath at dinner each evening, praying the Lutheran Book of Worship prayer for that week, and singing a stanza of "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel." We still do it. We began the celebration of Advent this evening, with the lighting of the first candle of the Advent wreath. Here are the readings for the first week from the Revised Common Lectionary--texts very familiar to Adventists--along with some hymns: https://billcork.wordpress.com/2011/11/25/first-week-of-advent-3/
Bill,
Thanks for the article and all your follow-up comments. Mary's part in the gospel story is, indeed, worthy of our reflection. Perhaps the negative reactions just underscore the common wisdom that you should never talk about anyone's mother!
Kim Greene: :) You got it!
John Mark, sacrificing children to Mary? So loving Mary leads to child sacrifice? Jesus loved Mary. So does that make him an evil man who wanted to sacrifice children to her? Your comment has to be one of the most over the top that I have yet seen. Gee, do SDA's sacrifice children to Ellen White? C'mon.
Well Fr. Jim you just blew my theory about only Adventists being blind to Sarcasm and parody.
I knew this site had a problem detecting sarcasm, but I guess I didn't know it was this bad...
Poe's Law, John Mark. "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."
See http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe%27s_Law for more information as to the codification, history, and uses of the "law". Examples:
"Jerry Schwarz in 1983 stated If you submit a satiric item without this (smiley) symbol, no matter how obvious the satire is to you, do not be surprised if people take it seriously.
"Alan Morgan in 2001 stated Any sufficiently advanced troll is indistinguishable from a genuine kook."
And then there is the "Poe Paradox":
:The Poe Paradox is a further corollary to Poe's Law that results from an unhealthy level of paranoia. It states that:
“In any fundamentalist group, a paradox exists where any new person (or idea) sufficiently fundamentalist to be accepted by the group is likely to be so ridiculous that they risk being rejected as a parodist (or parody)."
But... back to the thread topics...
Who can plead innocent of capitalizing the word Mother when it refers to one particular person?
I for one, welcome increased attention being given to the Season of Advent. This is something that I as a long time SDA was first introduced to by the pastoral staff of the Collegedale SDA Church under the leadership of the head pastor who is presently President of the GA Cumberland Conference... when he began a tradition at the Collegedale SDA church of using the Advent Wreath as a focus for December church services. I hope it will spread throughout our denomination in the years to come.
I once read an excellent column by Pastor Jim Coffin (Markham Woods SDA Church, Florida) "A word or two in defense of Mary". Here's the link:
http://www.markhamwoodschurch.org/prints-December%202007.php4#prints4
Hail, Ellen, Mother of Adventism !
"Who can plead innocent of capitalizing the word Mother when it refers to one particular person?"
When it is in one paragraph and not in another.
Bille, Parodying in cyberspace is indeed a tricky business. One the one hand, sometimes the parodied have gone so far off the deep end that they are impossible to distinguish from the parody. On the other hand, (what I think is the case with this site) the opposing side has such a caricatured view of the other side that they can't detect parody. Honestly, I would have thought the Sacrificing babies would have been enough to give it away.
John Mark, I love sarcasm. But you raise an interesting question. I have had various fundamentalists accuse Catholics of all kinds of insane things. For example that we are plotting to take over the world, that we plan a new inquisition, that we worship the Pope as God, that we worship Mary as God, that we have a big computer with all Protestant names in it, and I even had two who asked if we sacrificed animals in secret rituals. So it is kind of hard to tell when they are being sarcastic and not serious. Maybe that would be a good Advent reflection?
Of course the parody's going to have some similarity to reality, that's the point. I'm very frustrated by the Walter Veith types, and they have pushed really absurd conspiracies. However, I don't even think Veith has suggested the Catholic Church is sacrificing babies to Mary - though it wouldn't entirely surprise me.
There was no virgin birth until a generation later Matthew and Luke suddenly came upon the "story" that was unknown to the former NT writers, Paul and Mark. How is it possible that such a miraculous event was of no importance to them, had never heard of it, but much later writers somehow, discovered it! How is this possible?
The other Gospels proclaimed a formerly unknown but yet miraculous event, and their stories are all so contradictory as to be impossible to believe.
Such an important story, including no secular account of a census, an order to kill male infants, and the family return to Nazareth, or to Egypt, are all a contrived story with no possible substantiation.
A beautiful and moving story with celebrations at a time when the event is both unknown and cannot have been when it is mrmorialized, should be recognized for what it really is: A myth of the beginning of Christianity without any possible evidence but a created legend that has become Christianity's most memorable myth.
Elaine
John Mark...I love paroday and i come from a sarcastic Irish family.......but you really need to sharpen your craft; you need to somehow make your parody NOT sound just like a rank fundamentalist. Good luck with that, for parody can be extremely effective
Fay Crombie,
Yes, obviously it did not work out well for this site. :-) I still think part of the problem is the caricatured image people on this site have of rank fundamentalists. Also parody relies on people knowing the writer well enough to know where he's coming from. Apparently, I haven't posted on this often enough for people to not think I'm not a kook; that or I have somehow convinced them I am a kook...
>>> that we have a big computer with all Protestant names in it
There are approximately 7B people on Earth. Their names vary in length, but lets be generous and allow 140 characters per name.
This gives us about 140 * 7B = 1000*B bytes of storage needed. 1B = 1Gigabyte. 1000B = 1Terabyte
1 Terabyte external hard drives fit on home PC's and cost about $200 USD ...
So, if the RCC has a computer with all the Protestant names in it, it need not be a big one :-)
The LDS, on the other hand, are building extensive family trees. That requires slightly more space :-)
/Bevin
There is no Narnia, cries the Lady of the Green Kirtle, once again.
I respond as Puddleglum: "Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up,. all those things--trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as a like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia."
Lent actually is about the weeping of Tammuz, so I don't know why you think Christ kept it?
This piece isn't about Lent ... so let's not get sidetracked. But let me note that Lent isn't about the weeping of Tammuz. It's about the 40 days Jesus was in the wilderness, or the 40 years Israel was, or the 40 days Elijah was in the desert, or the 40 days Moses was on the mountain (hence in Spanish called "Cuaresma," . It was historically the time of final preparation for baptism, which took place on the festival called Pascua in Spanish (from Pesach, Passover). These things have deep Biblical roots; no need to get to the silly fanciful legends of Hislop.
Bargain Zero and Questing are certainly on target and I need say no more.
Quit answering them. It just encourages them. You think they're here to be persuaded?
bY the way, racheL has fixed thE typO. maybE that will put an end to that conspiracY theorY. :-)
Your Friend - Mon, 11/28/2011 - 08:18
"I need say no more."
A Christmas wish come true!
____________________________________________________
"be reverent in behavior, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good" titus 2:3
You have tempted me, Hopeful. Maybe Cork has spent so much time in his venture with Catholicism that he is honestly confused.
Our church has a computer with the names of us Adventists on it. I hear they're tracking things like tithe-giving. Scary!
Mi sono imbattuto in questo sito per caso. Io lavoro in Vaticano. Io non sono persona importante qui, ma so che quello che alcuni di voi hanno scritto qui è vero. Ci aggiorna gli elenchi di tutti voi, specialmente quelli che sanno cosa stanno facendo, come il avventisti del settimo giorno e altri che la gente chiama "anti-cattolica". Sono un impiegato ogni giorno ho la copia e la correzione di queste liste. Alcuni dei vostri uffici hanno le persone ci danno l'elenco dei membri. Internet rende facile. Loro la guardano. Molti degli autori presenti sul sito sono sicuro perché non sono forti contro di noi. Ma c'è qualcosa che accadrà presto, non so i dettagli, ma so che quelli di voi che scrivono anti-cattolica le cose qui sono stati segnati, siete in pericolo.
Devo scrivere in fretta, perché non dovrei dire questo. La Guardia svizzera potrebbe vestire comico, ma sono molto pericolosi. Se mi sono preso la mia vita è in pericolo. Controllano ciò che scriviamo ed a volte guardare sopra la spalla. Si prega di pregare per me affinché io mhjk
Translated by http://translation.babylon.com/italian/to-english/
I ran into this site for case. I work in the Vatican. I am not very important person here, but i know that some of you have written here is true. We update the lists of all of you, especially those who know what they are doing, as the seventh day adventist and other people called "anti-catholic". They are used every day i have a copy and the correction of these lists. Some of your offices have people give us the list of members. Internet makes it easy. ...
Fortunately the Internet also helps us spot Trolls easily also
/Bevin
I share Questing's concerns about this article. It's a thin line, perhaps, between setting time and space aside to turn the spotlight on Mary and flirting with the Catholic Church's elevating her to deity status. While I may not be as dismissive as he is, I too am very cautious about blurring any doctrinal lines that can lead to diminishing Jesus' Divinity and unique role as our Savior. So perhaps the intent of the article was not to bridge the gap between SDA and Catholicism. However, while I don't advocate spiritual bigotry and do stand by the truths of this church (SDA) and will resist the ever subtle temptation to flirt with Biblical interpretations that shift our focus away from Christ. As chosen, virgin, willing, submissive as Mary was, she can't save anyone. She is as dependent on Christ's sacrifice as the rest of us. That point needs to be emphasized!
"As chosen, virgin, willing, submissive as Mary was, she can't save anyone. She is as dependent on Christ's sacrifice as the rest of us."
That is one thing I think every single contributor to this thread can agree on. Even Fr. Jim!
"As chosen, virgin, willing, submissive as Mary was, she can't save anyone. She is as dependent on Christ's sacrifice as the rest of us."
Absolutely Rachel. The Catholic Church teaches nothing less - Mary herself "magnifies the Lord and [her] spirit rejoices in God her saviour".
Tim - Clement
-------------
After listening to Amy Jill Levine explain the OT with the NT, it becomes even more apparent, that the story woven in the Gospels about a "virgin giving birth" is a complete and erroneous use of Isaiah's prophecy of a "young woman" who was to give birh, contemporary with the prophet Isaiah and had absolutely no connection whatsoever to Mary who was claimed to be a virgin and inseminated by the Holy Spirit. This was the same "virgin births" claimed for many previous Greek and Roman gods, and was possibly added by the Gospel writers to elevate Jesus to their godly status, also. A myth, repeated long enough becomes "fact with no supporting evidence whatsoever."
Elaine
Elaine, once again I refer you to The Christians as the Romans Saw Them by Wilken. Christians were not just another pagan mystery cult. Even the pagans knew that. The Virgin Birth was not the same as in their myths. The pagans themselves, see Celsus, ridiculed Christianity. In the LXX it was translated "virgin." They knew what Isaiah meant. They could have used "young woman" but did not. Given that they were not Christian scholars they could not be accused of bias. Given that God created the universe I don't think a virgin birth is that difficult. Belief in the virgin birth and that Mary is the Mother of God protects our teaching that Jesus is fully human and fully divine. You may not agree with that, but do not characterize it as just another pagan myth.
Then Mary said, “My heart is overflowing with praise of my Lord, my soul is full of joy in God my Saviour. For he has deigned to notice me, his humble servant and, after this, all the people who ever shall be will call me the happiest of women! The one who can do all things has done great things for me—oh, holy is his Name! Truly, his mercy rests on those who fear him in every generation. He has shown the strength of his arm, he has swept away the high and mighty. He has set kings down from their thrones and lifted up the humble. He has satisfied the hungry with good things, and sent the rich away with empty hands. Yes, he has helped Israel, his child: he has remembered the mercy that he promised to our forefathers, to Abraham and his sons for evermore!” Luke 1:46-55 (PHILLIPS)
____________________________________________________
"be reverent in behavior, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good" titus 2:3
Amen Hopeful!
Tim
Tim - Clement
-------------
Let's be clear on what Catholicism does and does not teach about Mary.
First, what Protestants and Catholics agree on:
1. She's fully human, not divine in any sense. She is a creature, she praises her creator.
2. She was a virgin who gave birth to the Son of God by the Holy Spirit.
3. Mainline Protestants agree with Catholics that she was Theotokos. This grew out of the Nestorian controversy, when Nestorius split Jesus' humanity from his divinity. He would say Mary was only Christotokos, the bearer of the human nature. Chalcedon said that in the incarnation the humanity and divinity are inseparably united. It was the God-man, fully human and fully divine, who was in Mary's womb. Thus Mary is called Theotokos, the bearer of God--or, as usually translated, "Mother of God." This is a statement of who Jesus is, not who Mary is.
Where we differ:
1. Catholics say Mary was conceived without original sin. This is what is called the Immaculate Conception (note that the Immaculate Conception is NOT the virgin birth). Because she had no original sin, she could not transmit it to Jesus. Catholics fought about this for centuries--the Franciscans pushed this idea as fitting and as honoring Mary, the Dominicans opposed it. They believed Mary was cleansed of sin an instant after conception.
2. Catholics and Orthodox say she was "All Holy." Not only did the Holy Spirit preserve her from inherited sin, but from actual sin, as well. She was sinless, but this was due to the intervention of the Holy Spirit because of the redemption in Christ. It was not that she didn't need a redeemer, but that her redemption included all of this.
4. Catholics and Orthodox believe she remained a virgin ever after. Catholics speak of her remaining a virgin even in the act of giving birth. Some theologians say Jesus passed through her womb as he passed through the door of the upper room. No stretching of the birth canal, no pain, no screaming.
5. Catholics believe that after her death she was assumed (raised body and soul) to heaven. Orthodox speak of this as the "Dormition," or falling asleep.
6. Catholics say Mary is the Mother of the Church, and our Mother (referring to the story of John at the foot of the cross: "Behold, your mother"). They say she can intercede for us (as we might intercede for another).
7. Some Catholics make further claims--that she is Mediatrix of All Graces and Co-Redemptrix. Some theologians are careful to say this means that she cooperated in redemption by assenting to the incarnation. Some are not so careful. Some have pushed for these titles to be defined as dogmas. Rome has been reluctant to do so.
8. Many Catholics believe she has appeared to various people through the ages. These are in the realm of private revelation--no Catholic has to believe in these. The Catholic church has approved some, saying that they are supernatural in origin and have born good fruit, and the teachings are not in error. But no Catholic has to believe in these. If they can help you live a better life, and call you to repentance, fine. If not, fine. You don't get this nuance in the writings of some extreme followers of these things, though.
Is anyone here advocating any of those ideas that separate Catholics and Protestants? No.
Thank you, Pastor Cork for the information. It is very clear.
Lemuel S.
Bill,
Great summary. I would add that according to the Adventist BRI:
http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/Biblequestions/Jesusfamilyties.htm
it agrees that Mary could well have remained a virgin.
Also, the reason Catholics feel they can seek Mary's intercession is because of her assumption into heaven. If she is indeed in heaven, then why nto ask her to pray for us?
Tim
Tim - Clement
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